AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2945 times:
At my home airport, PDX, I don't see a lot of widebodies there. Here are the ones that I know of:
HA: Boeing 767-300 to and from HNL. They used to do PDX-OGG as well, but that route was cut I think a couple of months ago, thanks to AS I would assume. I would really, really hate to see HA pull out of PDX thanks to AS's popularity with all of their 737-800s painted with flower leis...
DL: Boeing 767-300 to NRT and AMS. These routes used to belong to NW. They operated an A330 on both routes, as I heard that that was the smallest widebody they had? No real surprise DL "downgraded" the flights to 763s, as I doubt that PDX really sees enough traffic to warrant anything bigger. However, I have heard rumors that DL occasionally subs in an A330 for the AMS flight. Is this true?
So, am I forgetting anything? What do you guys think the future of widebodies looks like in PDX? Honestly, all I see in the next few decades are lots and lots and lots of AS 737s...
SSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 434 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2940 times:
787 might open up some new routes. Not leisure routes, though, so that's limiting. You do have the PNW semiconductor cluster, so perhaps some business routes to Asia.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5932 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2897 times:
Asiana cargo regularly sends 744 freighters here (sometimes converted passenger birds!). A very lively livery...also Boeing built their auxiliary paint booth at PDX, so I predict 787s in the near future...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2778 times:
Quoting SSTeve (Reply 1): 787 might open up some new routes. Not leisure routes, though, so that's limiting. You do have the PNW semiconductor cluster, so perhaps some business routes to Asia.
Interesting to know, thanks.
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 2): Asiana cargo regularly sends 744 freighters here (sometimes converted passenger birds!). A very lively livery...also Boeing built their auxiliary paint booth at PDX, so I predict 787s in the near future...
flashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2863 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
As much as it pains me to say it, PDX will always have very limited TPAC/TATL service, and that's where you'd see the narrowbodies. For those of us who remember the DL hub, it spoiled us in terms of seeing widebodies at PDX so often. That's not the future, though.
On the other hand, it will be pretty cool to see what Boeing does with the paint facility because we could see one-off trips of freshly painted liveries from around the world, regardless of model. It hopefully will introduce a bit more of a "surprise" factor of PDX spotting, which currently goes something like this: 737, 737, Q400, Q400, 737, A320, Q400, 757, A320, Q400, 737.
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2727 times:
Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 4): I suggest switching this to the Civil Aviation forum. More appropriate forum and will probably get more responses there.
Mods, what do you think?
Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5): As much as it pains me to say it, PDX will always have very limited TPAC/TATL service, and that's where you'd see the narrowbodies.
I agree. I wouldn't doubt that all the other west coast hubs with lots of TransPac and TransAtl service like SFO, LAX, and SEA see much more traffic than PDX. If I remember correctly this was a big reason LH pulled out of PDX in 2009 - more traffic out of SEA.
Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5): For those of us who remember the DL hub, it spoiled us in terms of seeing widebodies at PDX so often. That's not the future, though.
I believe that was before my time - 1990s? Do you know what aircraft DL used during that time?
Quoting flashmeister (Reply 5): PDX spotting, which currently goes something like this: 737, 737, Q400, Q400, 737, A320, Q400, 757, A320, Q400, 737.
You've got that right! Like I said earlier:
Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter): Honestly, all I see in the next few decades are lots and lots and lots of AS 737s...
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2212 posts, RR: 16 Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2717 times:
flyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1856 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
AMS is going to year round A332. Currently is an A333. Rumors have been around DL for a while of a potential ICN or a CDG flight. I just don't see how that would work personally and don't think it holds much truth to it. Hopefully the service DL offers remains. In the past DL had a lot more widebodies here including domestic 762s. In the 90s UA had the DC-10 in PDX. I also recall that even post 9/11 NW was using the DC-10 to AMS.
my views expressed here are my own, and do not represent any company or organization
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2605 times:
Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 10): AMS is going to year round A332. Currently is an A333.
Was it an A333 year-round? I could've sworn it was a 767, as I don't recall ever seeing a 333 at PDX before.
Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 10): Rumors have been around DL for a while of a potential ICN or a CDG flight. I just don't see how that would work personally and don't think it holds much truth to it.
I agree. I just don't think PDX sees that kind of traffic these days.
Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 10): Hopefully the service DL offers remains.
Once upon a time (early 2010), I heard that the Port of Portland was paying DL some multi-million dollar payment for them to keep the NRT and AMS service. I am not sure if that is still happening, of if it is long gone. Are the DL International routes profitable? I have heard before that discounted tourist seats don't make profits, and with all the hippies here in Portland...
Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 10): In the past DL had a lot more widebodies here including domestic 762s.
It has been a couple of years since I've flown DL but I do see lots of A320s and 757s at PDX these days.
BlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1869 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2519 times:
If you count the Boeing heavies being painted, we actually get a good amount of traffic! For scheduled stuff, I think you hit it all:
HA and the 763 to HNL
DL does the 763 to NRT and the A333 in the summer to AMS (new for 2012), that is sometimes a 763 in the winter and will be an A332 winter 2012 (daily)?. I think I've seen a 3rd DL 763 at the field before. Not sure if one rotates through ATL every now and then, but I swear I've seen that.
I take the DL flight to AMS once or twice a year and try to send my money there.
We also get the Asiana 747F as noted as well as UPS and FedEx heavy jets (MD10s, 767s, A300s).
--
For the future, the only longhaul route I hope for eventually is a LHR non-stop. Maybe in 5 years with the 787 and BA?
A non-stop to HKG would fill a hole in the DL pacific network (they don't fly non-stop to HKG from SEA), but that seems insanely unlikely.
As most of us seem to agree. As long as we have daily service to both Asia and Europe, I think we're all happy.
Don't want to see new service take away from existing service.
The upgrades on the AMS route are nice and once the 767s are refurbished and rotated through with Delta, it should be a more competitive routing.
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2498 times:
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 12): If you count the Boeing heavies being painted, we actually get a good amount of traffic!
I had indeed not thought of that in my OP, interesting to know!
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 12): DL does the 763 to NRT and the A333 in the summer to AMS (new for 2012),
So is the AMS flight is only seasonal now?
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 12): I think I've seen a 3rd DL 763 at the field before. Not sure if one rotates through ATL every now and then, but I swear I've seen that.
If you're talking about PDX I can't say I've ever seen more than 2 DL 767s there before. DL also only uses one international gate now, D11. (They used to use more.) HA used to use D10 when they had the OGG flight, but now they only use D4. In the international concourse, D11 is the only gate with DL signage, while all the others, D10 and D12-D15, sit dormant.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 12): I take the DL flight to AMS once or twice a year and try to send my money there.
Good man. If I had the money/reason to do so then I would likely be doing the same.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 12): For the future, the only longhaul route I hope for eventually is a LHR non-stop. Maybe in 5 years with the 787 and BA?
Same here. I personally would love a BA 744 though...
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 12): A non-stop to HKG would fill a hole in the DL pacific network (they don't fly non-stop to HKG from SEA), but that seems insanely unlikely.
Sounds unlikely indeed. Like I've said before, I just don't think PDX sees enough traffic to warrant anything more than what we have now.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 12): As most of us seem to agree. As long as we have daily service to both Asia and Europe, I think we're all happy.
Don't want to see new service take away from existing service.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 12): The upgrades on the AMS route are nice and once the 767s are refurbished and rotated through with Delta, it should be a more competitive routing.
Competitive with what? SEA?
By the way... A bit OT here... But you mentioned that you've taken the DL flight to AMS before. Do you remember any details of the international arrival procedures at PDX? I've always wanted to go down to our international facility.
BlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1869 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2434 times:
AlnessW - The AMS route is year round. It used to go down to 4x weekly and 763 service, but for 2012 winter it will be 5x? weekly and A332 service
The 763s that DL has been flying around are pretty poor internally compared to a number of other airlines. Most notably, there are people who flight PDX-SEA-NRT-HKG to get on good equipment. PDX-YVR (or SFO)-HKG/NRT are probably more common when you can get on Singapore in SFO to NRT, Cathay to Hong Kong...
There are some customers that avoid the 763 out of PDX even though it is direct to NRT.
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The int'l facilities are nice enough downstairs. If you are at the back of the bus on the inbound from AMS, it can take 15 minutes or so to clear customs. The bus ride from the plane to the facilities is the strangest part, but they do the best they can.
--
I'm frankly very appreciative of the nonstop to AMS. I've got it booked twice this year so far and it works well to avoid a connection on the east coast. it is a painless way to get to europe.
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2392 times:
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14): The AMS route is year round. It used to go down to 4x weekly and 763 service, but for 2012 winter it will be 5x? weekly and A332 service
Thanks for the clarification!
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14): The 763s that DL has been flying around are pretty poor internally compared to a number of other airlines.
That's what I've heard, too.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14): Most notably, there are people who flight PDX-SEA-NRT-HKG to get on good equipment.
Yes, in fact, I think that I too would rather connect in SEA or LAX to hop on a flag carrier 744.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14): There are some customers that avoid the 763 out of PDX even though it is direct to NRT.
I guess it all depends on the flier...
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14): The int'l facilities are nice enough downstairs. If you are at the back of the bus on the inbound from AMS, it can take 15 minutes or so to clear customs.
Interesting, thanks.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14): The bus ride from the plane to the facilities is the strangest part, but they do the best they can.
How does that work? I was under the impression that the international gates D10-D15 were all connected via a hallway to a staircase that leads to customs and immigration. At least that is what I've seen walking around the int'l concourse before - all of the gates are connected to a sterile hallway which you can see from inside the terminal. The hallway leads to an enclosed box in the corner between gates D10 and D12, where I would assume the staircase is. What gate did you arrive at?
What I do know, though, is that Portland pax ride a bus from the customs area to the international arrivals area. You can see what appears to be a bus stop from the concourse connector between gates D8 and D10. The dropoff area is located between gates E1 and E2, where pax then go inside the terminal to the arrivals area.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14): I'm frankly very appreciative of the nonstop to AMS. I've got it booked twice this year so far and it works well to avoid a connection on the east coast. it is a painless way to get to europe.
CompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 870 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1933 times:
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 8): Delta's Asia hub at PDX was mostly MD-11, with sone long range Lockheed L1011-500 Tristars. No transpacific 767s (except to HNL).
DL did not fly PDX-HNL until it acquired NW and dropped the route shortly thereafter.
Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 10): AMS is going to year round A332. Currently is an A333. Rumors have been around DL for a while of a potential ICN or a CDG flight. I just don't see how that would work personally and don't think it holds much truth to it. Hopefully the service DL offers remains. In the past DL had a lot more widebodies here including domestic 762s. In the 90s UA had the DC-10 in PDX. I also recall that even post 9/11 NW was using the DC-10 to AMS.
NW did not operated PDX-AMS until 2008, shortly after the DC-10 had been retired.
NW inaugurated PDX-NRT in the mid-2000s with DC-10 equipment as a stopgap until the 332 arrived.
If DL inaugurates West Coast-ICN, it'll be from SEA.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14): The 763s that DL has been flying around are pretty poor internally compared to a number of other airlines. Most notably, there are people who flight PDX-SEA-NRT-HKG to get on good equipment. PDX-YVR (or SFO)-HKG/NRT are probably more common when you can get on Singapore in SFO to NRT, Cathay to Hong Kong...
LOL, NW's 332 certainly didn't attract many more passengers. PDX-NRT was inaugurated with guaranteed subsidies; after they dried up, NW heavily slashed frequency. If anything, the 763 "saved" the route or at least saved the frequency.
Sure, there's a niche market that will always choose Cathay, Singapore, etc. but it's very small and almost insignificant to the PDX market.
PDX-Asia is simply not a very large market, folks.
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1898 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 16): DL did not fly PDX-HNL until it acquired NW and dropped the route shortly thereafter.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 16): NW did not operated PDX-AMS until 2008, shortly after the DC-10 had been retired.
NW inaugurated PDX-NRT in the mid-2000s with DC-10 equipment as a stopgap until the 332 arrived.
If DL inaugurates West Coast-ICN, it'll be from SEA.
Interesting to know, thanks for sharing.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 16): LOL, NW's 332 certainly didn't attract many more passengers. PDX-NRT was inaugurated with guaranteed subsidies; after they dried up, NW heavily slashed frequency. If anything, the 763 "saved" the route or at least saved the frequency.
So it sounds like NW's 330s were not much better than DL's 763s?
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 16): Sure, there's a niche market that will always choose Cathay, Singapore, etc. but it's very small and almost insignificant to the PDX market.
Yes, I think a lot of people flying out of PDX are just hippies that want to get to their destination as quickly and as cheaply as possible. They don't care about airlines or aircraft types.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 16): PDX-Asia is simply not a very large market, folks.
BlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1869 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1874 times:
I don't know the daily passenger count to Asia, but Europe gets about 1000pax a day from Portland. (that was from the Port of Portland about 2-3 years ago).
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For most of the customer that fly these routes, they don't know 767 from a 747.
However... those people DO talk amongst themselves.
I have plenty of associates who work for Nike/Intel or Columbia that go to Asia regularly. Many of them transit with CX via SFO or YVR.
My last trip to Asia this year I went via YVR (cx award ticket was the main reason).
Many of those customers who don't know anything about planes but have to go to Asia regularly do avoid the old 767 that DL flies on PDX-NRT.
Plenty of people choose on fare alone, but the A332 is a big upgrade for most pax and plenty of people do know this.
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Totally agree we are decades away from any other Asian flights, but I can see ICN or HKG at some point in 2020 or something a ways out on a 787.
CompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 870 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1844 times:
Quoting AlnessW (Reply 17): So it sounds like NW's 330s were not much better than DL's 763s?
No, the 332 are nicer than the 763 but also much larger.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 18): Plenty of people choose on fare alone, but the A332 is a big upgrade for most pax and plenty of people do know this.
Time and price are the biggest considerations when purchasing tickets. I don't disagree that a small, insignificant, niche market will pay more and make an additional connection to travel on an Asian carrier. However, the over whelming majority of passengers simply won't add several hours of transit to their itinerary, especially when they'll be in the air for 10+ hours as it is. They may moan about DL's service, but they'll utilize it.
Recall than PDX paid DL $3.5M to retain the service to Tokyo just a couple years ago.
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1639 times:
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 18): For most of the customer that fly these routes, they don't know 767 from a 747.
Doesn't surprise me.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 18): However... those people DO talk amongst themselves.
Interesting...
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 19): No, the 332 are nicer than the 763 but also much larger.
That was my impression, but I was confused when you said this:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 16): NW's 332 certainly didn't attract many more passengers.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 19): However, the over whelming majority of passengers simply won't add several hours of transit to their itinerary, especially when they'll be in the air for 10+ hours as it is. They may moan about DL's service, but they'll utilize it.
That makes sense, I suppose.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 19):
Recall than PDX paid DL $3.5M to retain the service to Tokyo just a couple years ago.
I remember hearing about that, too. It was shortly after LH dropped PDX in 2009, if I remember correctly. I also heard that it really pissed off the other airlines at PDX...
CompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 870 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1556 times:
Quoting AlnessW (Reply 20): That was my impression, but I was confused when you said this:
Another poster was suggesting PDX-NRT would be more successful if it was flown with A330 equipment that offered a better passenger experience. I was pointing out that it wasn't true as NW had flown the route with A332 and yet DL still needed to collect a $3.5M subsidy + downgrade the route to keep it going.
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1501 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 21): Another poster was suggesting PDX-NRT would be more successful if it was flown with A330 equipment that offered a better passenger experience.
Ah, I see.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 21): and yet DL still needed to collect a $3.5M subsidy + downgrade the route to keep it going.
Alasizon From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 286 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (12 months 5 hours ago) and read 1263 times:
While a tad late to this topic (odd for me and PDX topics), I just wanted to comment that while DL only is officially using D11 for international departures/arrivals, D15 is used if for any reason the NRT flight is coming in late and would run into the AMS flight. Likewise, they use D7 for at least one of the international departures per day (It usually is NRT, but sometimes is AMS)
Window seats may be over-rated, but I'll take a window seat on a DC9 anyday
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1193 times:
Quoting Alasizon (Reply 23): While a tad late to this topic (odd for me and PDX topics)
No worries! Always great to get contributions.
Quoting Alasizon (Reply 23): I just wanted to comment that while DL only is officially using D11 for international departures/arrivals
I was aware of this. D11 is also the only gate in the international area that is painted in DL colors, while all of the others sit dormant. Some have even had all of their computers, equipment, etc removed from the podium area.
Quoting Alasizon (Reply 23): D15 is used if for any reason the NRT flight is coming in late and would run into the AMS flight.
Interesting to know.
Quoting Alasizon (Reply 23): Likewise, they use D7 for at least one of the international departures per day (It usually is NRT, but sometimes is AMS)
BlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1869 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1195 times:
Talked to another friend this weekend and mentioned Delta was refurbishing their 763s.
He said he might give the PDX-NRT flight a chance now instead of flying to Vancouver to get to Hong Kong simply to get a better inflight product.
I know a few people here are comfortable asserting that equipment makes no difference to frequent fliers, but I just keep getting evidence from real people that it is something they consider strongly.
In particular, people unlike us who know planes, tend to associate a certain airline/route with either 'Good' planes or 'ratty' planes.
Once a route gets a reputation for flying old metal on it, it's hard to get that back.
Sorry I couldn't leave the dead horse alone, I'm asking people more and more about this and they all seem to like CX via YVR or UA via SFO.
--
I love PDX and always take the non-stop international flights when I need to be somewhere, but even i took PDX-YVR-HKG on my way to JNB/CPT. Just made more sense when you can book F on CX compared to BE on Delta.
AlnessW From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 618 posts, RR: 1 Reply 26, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1140 times:
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 25): Talked to another friend this weekend and mentioned Delta was refurbishing their 763s.
I have heard of this.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 25): He said he might give the PDX-NRT flight a chance now instead of flying to Vancouver to get to Hong Kong simply to get a better inflight product.
That does not surprise me.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 25): I know a few people here are comfortable asserting that equipment makes no difference to frequent fliers, but I just keep getting evidence from real people that it is something they consider strongly.
Hmm, interesting to know.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 25): In particular, people unlike us who know planes, tend to associate a certain airline/route with either 'Good' planes or 'ratty' planes.
That doesn't surprise me, either.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 25): Once a route gets a reputation for flying old metal on it, it's hard to get that back.
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 25): Sorry I couldn't leave the dead horse alone, I'm asking people more and more about this and they all seem to like CX via YVR or UA via SFO.
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I would really, really hate to see HA pull out of PDX thanks to AS's popularity with all of their 737-800s painted with flower leis... 
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