Tu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 490 posts, RR: 12 Posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 633 times:
I don't mean to start any war with this post, but with the western politicians recognizing Kosovo but condemming Abkhazia and South Ossetia, I have a simple question for the people living in the west that support Kosovo independence but not Abkhazia's and Ossetia's: Why? What is different in these two scenarios?
Please be constructive and objective.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 9460 posts, RR: 62 Reply 1, posted (2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 620 times:
I think the problem is not so much that the majorities of the populations of Abchasia and South Ossetia have decided to leave Georgia, especially if one accepts the century-old enmities and the abitrarian borders drawn especially under Stalin, where people, who knew the situation will have said "This isn't going to end well". Unfortunately it involved quite a bit of ethnic cleansing as well in the past (from both sides).
I think that, quite the contrary, it cleary up the situation. The Georgian government should accept, same as the Serbian one, that they have lost these regions for good.
Now, without any territorial claims, they can apply to join the EU or NATO, if they so wish.
One thing, which worries me though, is the future of the Crimean peninsula. The original population of the region, the Muslim Crimean Tartras, were deported , mostly to Kasachstan, during WW2 under Stalin's orders (he thought that they might support the Germans to gain independence from the Soviet Union), and ethnic Russian settlers moved there instead.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 11084 posts, RR: 22 Reply 2, posted (2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 612 times:
Quoting Tu204 (Thread starter): I have a simple question for the people living in the west that support Kosovo independence but not Abkhazia's and Ossetia's
Welcome and its nice to finally see a Russian view on this. On the other thread it was lacking. And your question is a very good one.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1): The Georgian government should accept, same as the Serbian one, that they have lost these regions for good.
I guess its true in reality . Even though we may not like it we have to accept what is done is done.
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 12436 posts, RR: 19 Reply 3, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 599 times:
Quoting Tu204 (Thread starter): I have a simple question for the people living in the west that support Kosovo independence but not Abkhazia's and Ossetia's: Why? What is different in these two scenarios?
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The reason for the differences between the "outside forces" is NOT the difference of the two cases but the heavy similarity. While Russia upon international recognition of the Kosovo independence swiftly realized its chances, the other side realized that they could block Russia until an agreement from both sides is reached to get ahead with general multilateral recognition of Kosovo, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The long-term problem of Russia might rather be that independent break-away republics from OTHER former Soviet republics might be seen as precedents for other potential breakaways from INSIDE Russia. And this means that the overall position of the other side is far more comfortable, as for example in case of France neither the Bretagne, nor the "Languedoc" nor the Alsace at present try to become independent.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 7839 posts, RR: 29 Reply 7, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 576 times:
Quoting F.pier (Reply 4): I think there are no differences. If they decided to have their own country we all should accept it.
I don't think it is that complex. If the complexities are as suggested by Jan, then the west should have thought another couple of time before supporting the declaration by Kosovo.
It is not as if folk did not warn of Russia's intense "interest" in what happened in Kosovo. Christ this bloody row has been going on one way or another since 1914. Enough already.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 9460 posts, RR: 62 Reply 8, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 575 times:
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7): It is not as if folk did not warn of Russia's intense "interest" in what happened in Kosovo. Christ this bloody row has been going on one way or another since 1914. Enough already.
And the South Ossetian-Georgian-Russian conflict similarly goes back several hundred years.
Bravo45 From United States, joined Sep 2001, 2031 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 509 times:
Excellent thread TU204! Welcome to my RUL.
Personally I had raised concerns about Kosovo's independence back when it happened. My point was the obvious fact that the west was not just wrong, but insincere to the people of Kosovo itself and could abandon them if the need arose. It also sowed seeds of legitimate grievance in Serbia that could be exploited by the radicals there and should that happen (I pray it doesn't) that the west would again stand by and watch like it did earlier. The Georgian episode blew away the cover for everyone to see the hypocrisy of the west. You will not find me blaming Russia but instead the west over this issue. For the record I am not against the independence of Kosovo, I disagree the way it was brought about. On the same note, I absolutely can't deny the people of South Osseitia and Abkhazia their right to break away from Georgia. Especially since both the regions never wanted to be a part of Georgia ever since Georgia itself broke away from the USSR.
Where I do disagree with Russia here is its refusal to now recognise Kosovo (maybe it will accept in the near future) or to acknowledge the same rights for the people of Chechnya. I am not for breaking of countries either including Russia, but my turnoff is the double standards being employed by all sides. The recipe that was used to make Kosovo independent can have very far reaching consequences. My hope after Kosovo's independence was for them to probably reach a deal with the EU that'll grant both Serbia and Kosovo the membership and since that'll blur the borders that it may end that story right there.
Quoting JoKeR (Reply 10): Despite the "pressure" from Russia, Serbia has rejected to recognize the independent states.
Of course Serbia would then have to show supreme hypocrisy of continuing to dispute Kosovo should it accept the breakaway Georgian regions. What is the Russian attitude towards Kosovo now? I don't remember hearing anything about that recently.
Quoting Baroque (Reply 11): now the boot is on the other foot and Serbia is not best pleased with Russia.
Serbia would definitely be feeling abandoned. Russia would probably do something about this, I doubt this silence from Russia will continue. Wonder if Russian would completely dump Serbia over Kosovo.
JoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 1786 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 497 times:
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 12):
Serbia would definitely be feeling abandoned. Russia would probably do something about this, I doubt this silence from Russia will continue. Wonder if Russian would completely dump Serbia over Kosovo.
EU is exploiting this (thankfully) by inviting the Serbian President, Prime Minister and Minister of European Integrations to Brussels and speeding up Serbia's EU ambitions. The EU has now said that Serbia will most probably become an official EU candidate in 2009 with potential entry window seen between 2012-2014.
The EU is working hard to rip Serbia out of Russia's jaws.
Just about the only bit of the whole damn Aeneid I remember and to think I knew the whole thing off by heart in Latin and English.
Just to put it in context, it was said by Laocoon warning those in Troy that the Greeks might be "up to something". As his reward for a timely warning a sea monster emerged and gobbled him up. Hmmmm. Any lessons there??
As I understand it, the main focus at present of the Serbian-Russian dispute is a contract relating to oil and pipelines, and involves Bulgaria. Sounds fun. I think Gasprom is in one corner.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 9460 posts, RR: 62 Reply 15, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 484 times:
Quoting Baroque (Reply 14): But substitute the EU for the Greeks.
Just about the only bit of the whole damn Aeneid I remember and to think I knew the whole thing off by heart in Latin and English. cry
Just to put it in context, it was said by Laocoon warning those in Troy that the Greeks might be "up to something". As his reward for a timely warning a sea monster emerged and gobbled him up. Hmmmm. Any lessons there??
IMO it is more about defusing a potential crisis spot within the European continent.
Imagine both Serbia and the Kosovo make it into the EU. Both join the Schengen agreement. Under EU rules any EU citizen can work and live in any EU country. Basically Serbs can then again live in Kosovo legally (obviously accepting the authority of the government of Kosovo) and EU anti-discrimination law would come into play to prevent discrimination of minorities.
Similarly, as a German, I can now, should I wish to do so, buy property in the former German provinces in Poland, and live and work there. I would, of course, have to accept that the Polish government is in charge and that is not anymore a German province, but I could as well be assured that the Polish government couldn't discriminate against me due to my German heritage.
I think an EU membership plus the Schengen agreement for both countries (though Kosovo still needs a lot of improvement before they qualify) might actually be the best solution to end these century old conflicts.
AlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 869 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 480 times:
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 12): What is the Russian attitude towards Kosovo now? I don't remember hearing anything about that recently.
Russian ambassador to Serbia said that Russia will not recognize Kosovo, even after the recognition of Abkhazia and S.Ossetia. In reality both regions will hardly be a part of their mainland country. What I do not agree is that countries that have recognized Kosovo are now calling for territorial integrity of Georgia.
Anyway, Kosovo is a precedant, and we may see more new countries such as Taiwan (it's about the time that they declare independence), Nagorno-Karabakh, Turkish Cyprus, Pridnjestrovlje, real Palestinian State, real Western Sahara, Southern Sudan, perhaps Corsica, Somaliland and more separatist regions.
Well I think Cyprus is the exception at the moment , its the only one that seems to want a solution. Talks have just started. If these talks fail then they should just stay seperate.
Cyprus rivals begin peace talks
Rival leaders of the divided island of Cyprus are meeting to launch negotiations aimed at reunifying the island after 34 years of division.
Cyprus President Demetris Christofias and rival Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat met at a compound in Nicosia.
Analysts say the talks have a real chance of resolving the dispute, which threatens Turkey's EU membership hopes.
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Thanks. Just imagine Bavaria to join Switzerland, possibly in the form of 5 additional Cantons. This would just be really great !
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Quoting JoKeR (Reply 10): And now Nicaragua has become the second country after Russia to formally recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
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it is the second, but will not be the last one
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Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 12): the obvious fact that the west was not just wrong
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Western Europe was NOT wrong but perfectly right in recognizing the indepence of the Republic of Kosovo. Even if the Russians now profit of the precedence.
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Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 12): disagree with Russia here is its refusal to now recognise Kosovo
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They will do so in exchange for a Western recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
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Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 7839 posts, RR: 29 Reply 19, posted (2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 444 times:
Quoting Oa260 (Reply 17): Having friends from both Turkish and Greek communities there is a real desire to make this work. Fingers crossed.
Just do not ask Australians about the qualities of the UN special negotiator, Mr Alexander Downer. You might receive a bit of a downer as they say. But good luck, long time that one was settled too.
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