AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 974 times:
MSNBC is reporting that a new bill pending in Congress is likely to eliminate the U.S.-Mexico border fence authorized a few weeks ago by the passage of a prior bill.
Isn't Congress simply amazing?
On the issue of immigration, this Congress has done little worthy of its standing. And now, this.
Searpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 944 times:
To each his own AF, personally I think this is a good move. The vote on the border fence was nothing more than a hollow political move, aimed solely at giving the House Republicans the ability to claim they were 'tough' on immigration.
Even when it was passed, there was no real expectation by anybody, including most of those that voted for it, that it would ever be built in the manner called for. Instead of engaging in the sham theatrics, they should have spent the time debating true immigration reform and earmarked money for new technology to defend the border. I'll be happy to see it wiped from the books.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 939 times:
Quoting Searpqx (Reply 1): The vote on the border fence was nothing more than a hollow political move, aimed solely at giving the House Republicans the ability to claim they were 'tough' on immigration.
Even when it was passed, there was no real expectation by anybody, including most of those that voted for it, that it would ever be built in the manner called for. Instead of engaging in the sham theatrics, they should have spent the time debating true immigration reform and earmarked money for new technology to defend the border. I'll be happy to see it wiped from the books.
I agree with all of the above, save for the last comment.
Yes, the idea of a border fence is not the best solution. Problem is, the democrats don't appear to have a better solution in mind. I'd prefer that they leave this flawed immigration provision on the books until they come up with a better alternative.
Of course, I'm presuming that the democrats really intend to do anything about illegal immigration.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38512 posts, RR: 80 Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 938 times:
The border fence was a horrible idea to begin with.
A bit off topic, it's interesting that 9 of the 10 congressional districts that are on the USA/Mexico border is now held by Democrats.
It had been 7 prior to last month's election.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 909 times:
Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter): MSNBC is reporting that a new bill pending in Congress is likely to eliminate the U.S.-Mexico border fence authorized a few weeks ago by the passage of a prior bill.
Isn't Congress simply amazing?
On the issue of immigration, this Congress has done little worthy of its standing. And now, this.
What a shame.
A shame? It's a great thing, IMHO. We don't have to stoop to tactics of lesser nations over the years, that, instead of doing work and making it so there isn't a NEED for this illegal immigration, we just try to close off the problem, which won't end the problem at all.
Now, we need forward-thinking people, who see that a wall isn't the answer, only a band-aid. We need to make a hemispheric commitment to improve the lives in all the America's, so that people won't try to desperately leave their homes illegally for other nations'.
I hope this bill passes, and the idea of a wall is nothing but an embarrassing memory.
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 903 times:
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4): We need to make a hemispheric commitment to improve the lives in all the America's, so that people won't try to desperately leave their homes illegally for other nations'.
While I'm all for improving the plight of others, any such efforts must be made in concert with real immigration reform that penalizes people in the US who break the law - starting with US-based employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.
What is amazing is that Congress passed the bill, and then refused to fund the project.
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2): Yes, the idea of a border fence is not the best solution.
I can understand the frustation of the property owners along the border, having groups of people sneak onto their property, knock down fences, leave their trash behind, bascially damaging other people property so they can attempt to have a better life.
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4): We need to make a hemispheric commitment to improve the lives in all the America's, so that people won't try to desperately leave their homes illegally for other nations'.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 894 times:
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5): While I'm all for improving the plight of others, any such efforts must be made in concert with real immigration reform that penalizes people in the US who break the law - starting with US-based employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.
Excellent amendment to what I said, Halls. I concur 100%.
Bravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 885 times:
Sorry for being off-topic but I find it ironic that the US will not build a fence inside its own territory while supporting the Israeli fence on someone else's undisputed property.
Not trying to hijack the thread, but I couldn't help conceal my thoughts on this.
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 875 times:
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8): Sorry for being off-topic but I find it ironic that the US will not build a fence inside its own territory while supporting the Israeli fence on someone else's undisputed property.
Not trying to hijack the thread, but I couldn't help conceal my thoughts on this.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38512 posts, RR: 80 Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 862 times:
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8): Sorry for being off-topic but I find it ironic that the US will not build a fence inside its own territory while supporting the Israeli fence on someone else's undisputed property.
Not trying to hijack the thread, but I couldn't help conceal my thoughts on this.
Not off topic at all and is an excellent comparison. It's funny yet disgusting to see conservative Republicans fall all over themselves trying to talk up there pro-Israeli settlements stance in the hopes of shaving off a few Jewish voters and contributions (a traditional Democratic voting block), yet at the same time propose a fence along the USA/Mexico border. I guess they've given up on Latino voters with the abortion issue. I am glad most Latino in the last election cycle saw the GOP's true colors and voted accordingly.
I wonder what the Republicans have lined up for Henry Bonilla now that he is out of a job after doing so much for the GOP.
Searpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 857 times:
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5): While I'm all for improving the plight of others, any such efforts must be made in concert with real immigration reform that penalizes people in the US who break the law - starting with US-based employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.
I've always held that the problem is as much the demand as it is the source. If you made the hiring of illegals painful enough, the demand would dry up.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
Charlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1077 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months ago) and read 839 times:
People who want to improve their lives won't let a wall stop them,it will only become an ugly graffiti covered reminder of what we are not,too many years were spent trying to get a certain wall removed in Berlin to have this become our symbol.
BigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 769 times:
Quoting Searpqx (Reply 11): I've always held that the problem is as much the demand as it is the source. If you made the hiring of illegals painful enough, the demand would dry up
At least the illegals in the US want to work, unlike the illegals in the UK, who just want to sponge off a benefit system already creaking under the weight of the actual UK citizens (my mother and sister included!)
The only way of stopping the US problem is to force all the countries of Central/South America to work to increase their own standards of living, but that's never going to happen as long as drugs/gun running line the pockets of all the corrupt leaders of these countries.
Adh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 353 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 744 times:
If we start with the assumption that you cannot build a fence tall enough to prevent people from trying to creating a better life for themselves, I propose allowing any non-US citizen arriving at a US border in good health and willing to pay a fee to receive a green card, social security number and a booklet explaining the minimum wage. This would eliminate illegal immigration because basically everyone would have a green card.
Think about how many skilled workers from all over the world could easily move to the US and help our economy grow.
Isn't the purpose of immigration policy really just to keep workers out of the US so wages are high? Do we really think US workers are so incompetent and lazy that the only way we can compete is to build a fence across our southern border?
I am sure someone will respond that these workers will take more in social services than they give in taxes. However, I saw a study just a few weeks back that immigrants actually have a net positive effect on our economy.
I say we welcome everyone that is in good health, not a terrorist, and can pay an entrance fee.
Derico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4233 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 738 times:
Quoting BigOrange (Reply 14): The only way of stopping the US problem is to force all the countries of Central/South America to work to increase their own standards of living, but that's never going to happen as long as drugs/gun running line the pockets of all the corrupt leaders of these countries.
So all people in the US are dumb and ignorant also, correct?
If we are playing the 'let's just generalize and paint with a 3 meter brush' game.
[Edited 2006-12-28 19:34:22]
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 738 times:
Quoting BigOrange (Reply 14): The only way of stopping the US problem is to force all the countries of Central/South America to work to increase their own standards of living, but that's never going to happen as long as drugs/gun running line the pockets of all the corrupt leaders of these countries.
That is only one part of a potential solution. The other tool we could use is prosecute - under existing laws on the books - employers who knowing hire illegal aliens.
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 15): If we start with the assumption that you cannot build a fence tall enough to prevent people from trying to creating a better life for themselves, I propose allowing any non-US citizen arriving at a US border in good health and willing to pay a fee to receive a green card, social security number and a booklet explaining the minimum wage. This would eliminate illegal immigration because basically everyone would have a green card.
And your presumption that there would be a paying job for every person who gets a green card under your proposal is charmingly naive, and would result in a huge burden of new legal residents with no chance of employment.
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 15): I say we welcome everyone that is in good health, not a terrorist, and can pay an entrance fee.
No. Not just no, but h*ll no. There has to be SOME limit on immigration, or we will drown in our hospitality.
Adh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 353 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 723 times:
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17): would result in a huge burden of new legal residents with no chance of employment.
If there was no chance of employment, why would they come here? I think it is "charmingly naive" that you think immigrants would take the time to come to the US if there is no prospect of employment. The whole reason immigrants come to the US is to find jobs. If there are no jobs, they will stay at home.
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17): There has to be SOME limit on immigration
Why? The whole idea of green cards and limited immigration is a fairly recent invention in US history.
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 718 times:
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 18): Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17):
would result in a huge burden of new legal residents with no chance of employment.
If there was no chance of employment, why would they come here? I think it is "charmingly naive" that you think immigrants would take the time to come to the US if there is no prospect of employment. The whole reason immigrants come to the US is to find jobs. If there are no jobs, they will stay at home.
Ever heard of public assistance? Medicaid? You are smoking some good sh*t if you really think that EVERY immigrant comes to the US with the goal of getting a job.
Most do, and I'm not being critical of those aliens who want to come to the US in search of opportunity they don't have at home.
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 18): Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17):
There has to be SOME limit on immigration
Why? The whole idea of green cards and limited immigration is a fairly recent invention in US history.
During earlier periods of US history, there was not only room for unlimited immigration, we needed it to fuel the boiler of growth. Remember when we used to pay people to homestead empty land?
Adh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 353 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 704 times:
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19): Ever heard of public assistance? Medicaid? You are smoking some good sh*t
I assure you that I am not smoking anything and before we continue this conversation may I suggest we both calm down the tone. I am not in a position to set policy and I am not a congressman. This is merely a conversation about the relative merits of an idea.
While I certainly agree that some immigrants will come to the US to receive public assistance. The public assistance programs in the US are far from generous by world standards. Further, my position is that the positive impact of the immigrants as a group will far out weigh the small number of people coming to the US to receive public assistance. In fact in your previous post, you point out that most immigrants come to the US to find work. I will presume they are not coming here to be "welfare queens."
In my mind, the immigration programs we have in the US creates the worst of all situations. Unskilled uneducated immigrants simply walk over the border and work illegally. At the same time, well educated immigrants spend years trying to get a green card to legally work in the US. We need to create a system that is exactly the opposite of this where highly skilled educated workers can easily come to the US while low skilled uneducated workers have no incentive to come to the US.
By opening the borders to all immigrants we will certainly accept plenty of low skilled people but my position is that this will more than be made up by the throngs of highly skilled immigrants that can start working in the US.
I would guess that many of the low skilled workers from Mexico that would like to come to the US are probably already here. I don't know that we would see an appreciable rise in their numbers if we simply opened the border. I think we would find thousands of people from Russia, China and India arrive on our borders with the skills necessary to advance our economy.
Finally, I think this plan would also solve another problem, Social Security. With thousands of new workers, the ratio of workers to retirees would increase and ease the Social Security burden.
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 692 times:
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 20): While I certainly agree that some immigrants will come to the US to receive public assistance. The public assistance programs in the US are far from generous by world standards.
Our public assistance programs are far more generous than those in Latin America, for the most part. I see this in every immigration case I brief. Invariably, the potential deportee cites inadequate medical care, education, and housing as reasons they do not want to return to _______.
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 20): Further, my position is that the positive impact of the immigrants as a group will far out weigh the small number of people coming to the US to receive public assistance.
Have any documented support for this assertion? Given the trend of small hospitals closing down their emergency rooms lest they be bankrupted by people on public assistance crowding their ER's, I'd say the problem is larger than you acknowledge.
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 20): At the same time, well educated immigrants spend years trying to get a green card to legally work in the US. We need to create a system that is exactly the opposite of this where highly skilled educated workers can easily come to the US while low skilled uneducated workers have no incentive to come to the US.
I agree. I don't agree that opening the doors with zero controls on immigration is the answer.
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 20): By opening the borders to all immigrants we will certainly accept plenty of low skilled people but my position is that this will more than be made up by the throngs of highly skilled immigrants that can start working in the US.
Have any documentation to support this assertion? If you are wrong about the balance between benefit and detriment, are you going to pull out YOUR checkbook to cover the difference?
BigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 682 times:
Quoting Derico (Reply 16): Quoting BigOrange (Reply 14):
The only way of stopping the US problem is to force all the countries of Central/South America to work to increase their own standards of living, but that's never going to happen as long as drugs/gun running line the pockets of all the corrupt leaders of these countries.
So all people in the US are dumb and ignorant also, correct?
If we are playing the 'let's just generalize and paint with a 3 meter brush' game.
So there's no corrruption in Argentina???
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 20): We need to create a system that is exactly the opposite of this where highly skilled educated workers can easily come to the US while low skilled uneducated workers have no incentive to come to the US.
As long as low skilled uneducated people see their fellow countrymen making $5 an hour in McD's or Taco Bell compared to $1 an hour for the same job at home, they are going to continue to try to get here, and nothing is going to take away that incentive.
My solution would be, anyone who gets into the country by whatever means should be allowed to stay for 6 months. During that time they have to find a job, pay taxes and find a permanent address. They would also have to register with the closest police station to their home and report once a week to said police station.
If they have no work after 6 months, they would be sent home. If they managed to get back into the country after deportation, they would not be allowed the 6 months to find work, but would immediately be deported.
There are some flaws to this, but given the right kind of planning this could work IMHO
Adh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 353 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 678 times:
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21): Have any documented support for this assertion? Given the trend of small hospitals closing down their emergency rooms lest they be bankrupted by people on public assistance crowding their ER's, I'd say the problem is larger than you acknowledge.
While I don't claim this report is definitive, I think it merits additional study.
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21): Have any documentation to support this assertion?
Again referring to the above link, if poorly skilled uneducated immigrants make a net positive impact to the economy, it is not an unreasonable leap to believe that highly skilled immigrants would have a larger net positive impact. The question becomes what will be the ratio of low to high skilled immigrants arriving with a new immigration policy. Doing a complete study of this aspect of my proposal is beyond my abilities. However, I certainly hope that an academic might pick this up and put the necessary resources and brain power behind studying it carefully.
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21): If you are wrong about the balance between benefit and detriment, are you going to pull out YOUR checkbook to cover the difference?
Oh let's face it I already do in the form of taxes on income, property, sales, etc, etc. However, so do all of the other immigrants that come here and actually succeed in working and building our economy.
At the end of the day, this comes down to a cost benefit analysis. Welcoming thousands of new immigrants will cost more in many ways. However, the benefits side of the equation includes, more skilled workers, less outsourcing, less border enforcement and associated legal costs, more legal tax paying workers of all skill levels, reunited families decreasing immigrant population violence, etc., etc.
In my opinion, this idea merits additional study by someone with the academic resources to provide an objective analysis.
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 661 times:
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 23): While I don't claim this report is definitive, I think it merits additional study.
Well, let's look at the details of the story.
According to Texas, "illegal immigrants put about $420 million more into state coffers than they take out."
According to the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the report is a composite of "design flaws, assumptions and conclusions in direct contrast to our years of exhaustive studies on this issue, and to our most recent Texas report, which shows illegal aliens cost Texas taxpayers $3.7 billion annually."
According to the Center for Immigration Studies, "illegal-immigrant households imposed $26 billion in costs on the federal government while paying $16 billion in taxes."
I'd say the jury is going to be out a long time trying to reconcile these numbers.
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 23): Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):Have any documentation to support this assertion?
Again referring to the above link, if poorly skilled uneducated immigrants make a net positive impact to the economy, it is not an unreasonable leap to believe that highly skilled immigrants would have a larger net positive impact.
Your argument fails after "if." Since we don't know if "poorly skilled uneducated immigrants make a net positive impact to the economy," opening up our borders is a risk I'm not willing to take.
Since you didn't indicate that you would be willing to write a check to cover the shortfall if your theories are wrong, I'd suggest you are being pretty free with money that that doesn't belong to you.
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 23): In my opinion, this idea merits additional study by someone with the academic resources to provide an objective analysis.
I agree. Study it to your heart's content. But in the meantime, we need yo enforce the laws that are currently on the books.
Sponsor Message: 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, 
From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38512 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
I've always held that the problem is as much the demand as it is the source. If you made the hiring of illegals painful enough, the demand would dry up.
From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7655 posts, 
From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4233 posts, 
No. Not just no, but h*ll no. There has to be SOME limit on immigration, or we will drown in our hospitality.
Ever heard of public assistance? Medicaid? You are smoking some good sh*t if you really think that EVERY immigrant comes to the US with the goal of getting a job.
Printer friendly format 
