Roseflyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5282 posts, RR: 17 Reply 1, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11605 times:
IAM officially told members to go on strike at 12:01am tonight. The news is hitting hard within the company. IAM leadership is saying that Boeing walked out of the negotiations.
I for one do not look forward to coming into work on Monday. Strikes are hard on everybody. No one ever wins in a strike. The IAM has their reasons which they list on their website. Boeing has been earning good profits since the last contract and IAM wants more of it. They want the benefits, retirement, salary, cost of living, employee incentive program and everything else that the company has slowly taken away or not granted. In the end, there will probably be fewer and fewer IAM jobs as Boeing sells off parts of the company to outside companies that can do the work at a lower cost. Engineering is subverted when major design is sent out like on the 787. IAM is subverted when a shop or division is closed and the work is outsourced to make a specific fastener or bracket. Lots of small shops are making parts for Boeing. It's risky, but the only way to make a profit. Boeing's goal is profit, since it is a for profit company afterall.
Hopefully no one suffers too bad, but I'm sure many will. Even with this, I'm a die hard Boeing fan.
[Edited 2008-09-05 16:07:29]
I design airplane parts for a living and am that guy that mechanics hate and blame for everything... the Design Engineer
Clickhappy From United States, joined Sep 2001, 8397 posts, RR: 66 Reply 7, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10968 times:
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Cancel? And do what? Drive down the street to the Airbus dealership and take home a couple of 777-300ERs? Cancel your 2010 787 slots for a 2014 A350 order?
I've been dating too. Nice girl, she's an author. She wrote the book on male sexual dysfunction. You've probably read it
Khobar From United States, joined Mar 2006, 1764 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10903 times:
Clearly demonstrates that no amount of incentive justified Boeing's decision to work with IAM workers.
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7): Cancel? And do what? Drive down the street to the Airbus dealership and take home a couple of 777-300ERs? Cancel your 2010 787 slots for a 2014 A350 order?
Those 2010 slots are actually 2011, no...2012, no...2013, no...
with all the delays piling on.
And not all airlines have 2010 slots anyway, right? There is some overlap with the hopeful delivery of the A350's, so I'd say there's a real risk of some of the outer fringe deliveries being converted.
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10824 times:
The IAM website states that the company (Boeing) "bargained illegally". Does anyone know what action of Boeing was (allegedly) illegal ? Which law was violated? Thanks.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
F9Animal From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2959 posts, RR: 23 Reply 10, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10755 times:
Quoting WestWing (Reply 9): The IAM website states that the company (Boeing) "bargained illegally". Does anyone know what action of Boeing was (allegedly) illegal ? Which law was violated? Thanks.
Alright.... Lots of good rumors flying around..... Have an open mind about this. Sure, some will throw things at me for saying this...... BOEING WANTED THE STRIKE!!!!!!???????
Think about it. Most airlines that have ordered Boeing aircraft have signed contracts to purchase these airplanes. Most contracts state that strikes will not be Boeing's responsibility for any delays.
Now...... Boeing sells the public, sends out radio commercials, starts negotiations 4 months early, and shows a true interest in getting this done.
Who..... Who believes Boeing was genuine? The public, the airlines, and world.
How.... Boeing spent millions to publicize this. In reality, what if the planes were delayed because of vendors not getting the stuff out to Boeing fast enough? Does Boeing then pay for the delays?
Why...... Boeing sends out a contract to vote on. Gets shot down.. Boeing walks into 48 hours of negotiations.... And walks out..... Says they won't give in.......
Final..... In a month or two, eventually something will give. Boeing may have saved money by going this route. Crazy to say, but we know Boeing has wanted a strike in the past to get caught up.
Can Boeing get away with a 787 delay again? Is this perhaps the reason? Come on.... Your so focused on blaming the union right now..... Maybe that is what this game really is all about!!!!!!!!
My name is F9Animal, and I approve this message! Â
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 3822 posts, RR: 28 Reply 11, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10713 times:
Quoting Khobar (Reply 8): I'd say there's a real risk of some of the outer fringe deliveries being converted.
For what? The economics that drove the initial orders haven't changed. The IAM stike might last 1-2 months...the 787 has already been delayed well over a year. If *that* didn't cause orders to convert to Airbus, why would a 1-2 month delay that doesn't change the deliverable product cause it?
N174UA From United States, joined Jun 2006, 862 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10626 times:
Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter): at 12:01 Saturday. The same day unemployment hit a 5-year high in Washington state.
No kidding. These guys didn't pick the best time, and I don't think they'll get as much sympathy this time around. 11% raise over 3 years...how many companies do you know of that are doing well and offering an average of just over 3% a year? I busted my ass last year and just barely got 3%.
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3): Personally I can't wait for Boeing to leave Seattle.
Well, the HQ left already, and it's really only a matter of time (and # of strikes) before the rest leaves. Not good news for a guy who lives 3 miles from the Everett plant.
Ken777 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 1958 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10619 times:
I wish the workers well. I do believe that when all is said & done the average worker will have lost more in wages than the additional payments Boeing will make to them because of the strike.
The union bosses will still get their paychecks during the strike. If they had to take the same strike pay as the average worker the strike would be a short one.
I'll be the first to admit that Boeing is in pretty good shape right now on the financial side. I'll also admit that they will need a few billion dollars for R&D of some new planes after the 787 and 748 are completed. Those investments will be a major factor for long term employment by these same workers.
Too much for this old guy to work out - I just hope that both sides get pragmatic as fast as possible.
Stratosphere From United States, joined Sep 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10612 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10): BOEING WANTED THE STRIKE!!!!!!???????
I can actually believe that. I know in my case at nwa it was for sure they forced the strike. They may run you guys to the street to see how hungry you get who knows. The only difference is nwa wanted the mechanics GONE. I wouldn't think that was the case here. But I can believe what you are saying.. Hey F9 how bad was the fight at the union hall? I didn't read anything about it.
WingedMigrator From United States, joined Oct 2005, 1507 posts, RR: 27 Reply 15, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10606 times:
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7): Drive down the street to the Airbus dealership and take home a couple of 777-300ERs?
I have a great deal for you my friend! A couple of used A345's with some chrome rims, Trent 500 sound system and under-wing mood lighting! Also a barely used A346, needs front end alignment, but otherwise like new.
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10): Most contracts state that strikes will not be Boeing's responsibility for any delays.
But it's not like that force majeure clause washes away the other 18 months of delay that did not arise from the strike. I doubt Boeing could get relief for any more than a day-for-day delivery slip.
Also, the penalty payments are only one source of revenue loss; the delay defers income regardless of its cause, cutting into ROI.
It's an interesting theory though-- the strike may buy time to burn down the pending change engineering. There are few things as challenging as maintaining a disciplined change process when under the gun to deliver yesterday.
Gearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 575 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10605 times:
Maybe this is a simple case of Boeing trying to avoid the mistakes that were made in the auto industry. While the big full size SUV and fully loaded pickup profits were rolling in GM just basically said to the unions "where do we sign?" and gave them what they wanted. Now that the gas is 3 to 4 bucks a gallon, nobody wants Hummers any more and GM is staring chapter 11 in the face, almost completely unable to compete on costs. Now while that is a gross oversimplification of the dilemma that GM is in, it is the basic truth. Of course it didn't happen overnight, it took about 40 years. Boeing is no GM (Thank God) but it is competing with a commercially agressive competitor and maybe in future years both Airbus and Boeing will both find themselves competing with low cost producers in emerging nations like India and China.
Great post, F9! I would only add that the strike, in this economic environment, gives Boeing all the ammunition they need to justify the systematic outsourcing of jobs that they've undertaken in recent years and probably will undertake in the future. Most Americans would trade their mother and first-born for the payscale and bennies that IAM members get.
"I am looking for the owner of that horse - he's tall, he's blonde, he smokes a cigar, and he's a pig."
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 12703 posts, RR: 53 Reply 18, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10549 times:
I really don't see where a long-duration strike helps Boeing.
The 787 suppliers are just about complete with ZA005 and ZA006. A strike will give them more time to complete ZA007-onwards prior to delivery, but eventually they'll have to stop further production (as Spirit already has for Section 41) due to a lack of storage space. And with four 787s already in position on the FAL, Boeing doesn't have space to store ZA005 or later birds.
Now, there have been rumblings that their might be supplier delays on the 747-8F, but if there are not, then those parts will also be piling up because Boeing needs to first finish the 747-400s and then convert the FAL.
So maybe 30 days might give Boeing some "free" breathing room, but anything like 90-120 days would likely hurt Boeing far more then help it unless all their suppliers are totally swamped themselves and need that time to catch up.
Coolfish1103 From United States, joined Feb 2008, 175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10547 times:
People will never satisfy.
No one really wins at a strike, but if Boeing goes naive and agree on the benefits and raise, then it's only Boeing losing out. Plus... goes on strike does not mean Boeing will give all those goodies.
F9Animal From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2959 posts, RR: 23 Reply 20, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10498 times:
Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 14): Hey F9 how bad was the fight at the union hall? I didn't read anything about it.
It was alot of yelling, screaming, and profanity. I did hear a few punches were thrown, but overall, it was not as bad as some have rumored it to be. I chatted with a guy from the Associated Press that night who was at the hall during the conference. He said that nobody was arrested like rumored, and that it was more verbal and throwing of things. Also, I have chatted with several upper union officals w
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