QF744 From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 413 posts, RR: 1 Posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10059 times:
Qantas has announced the eargly awaited request for proposals from Boeing and Airbus to replace the 763 and open new international routes.
Inside word has it that Boeing has the edge because of the 777-200LR's increased capabilities over the A340-500.
Also interesting to note that they may use their A320 options to replace the 734s.
Guess we'll have to wait and see.
Full release attached.
QF744
SYDNEY, 18 August 2005: Qantas announced today it would issue a Request for Proposal (RFP) to aircraft manufacturers for the future provision of new wide-body aircraft.
The aircraft would replace the Qantas Group’s fleet of medium wide-body Boeing 767-300 aircraft and also cater for international capacity growth and new route opportunities in coming years.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the RFP represented the first stage in what would be the Group’s largest fleet renewal program since 2000.
“Qantas is looking at options for the next generation wide-body aircraft to strengthen its competitive position and provide for future growth opportunities including medium-haul routes in Asia as well as services into the United States and Europe bypassing traditional hubs.
“To do this, we are formally seeking detailed pricing and performance information from Airbus and Boeing on aircraft types currently in production as well as new types and variants under development.”
The RFP will cover a mix of firm orders and options for:
Boeing 787 and Airbus A350 aircraft for use on medium-haul international, trans-Tasman and Australian domestic routes; and
ultra-long range variants of the Boeing 777 and Airbus A340 to operate on ‘hub-busting’ routes.
Mr Dixon said Qantas wanted a modern fleet that provided maximum flexibility, lower seat mile costs, greater fuel efficiency and the opportunity to introduce the next generation of inflight services.
Qantas holds options on the Airbus A320 and the Boeing 737-800, which will cover narrow-body growth and the possible need to replace the Boeing 737-400 fleet in the future.
Qantas’ last major fleet commitment was announced in November 2000. It included the purchase of 12 Airbus A380, six Boeing 747-400ER and 13 A330-200 and A330–300 aircraft.
Since then, the Group has also purchased additional Boeing 737-800 and A330-300 aircraft as well as 23 Airbus A320-200s for operation by Jetstar.
FlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10008 times:
Were there any estimate on how many airframes are included in the RFP? How long does it take from RFP to decision to buy?
This are definitely interesting times in aviation industry!!
Any guesses on which airline will submit a RFP in this magnitude?
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9939 times:
Been ill lately so not in office, but the planned order is for between 60-100 units according to our source, and there are 40 options remaining on A320s which seem most likely to replace the 734s and allow for growth.
The ultra long range choice will be interesting. I do not believe the A345 will be seriously considered and I think the action there really come down to the 787/A350 variants for delivery after 2012.
In the closer term we would expect a substantial order for 777-300ERs and the 787-3 and -9. It is possible some 777-200LRs will be included as a useful lead in to the choice of a ULR jet, but not many if in fact any are specified.
The 767s and we think in the longer term A330s will be removed from the mix, and we suspect that significantly more A380s will be ordered by Qantas from strong O & D routes like those to London and Los Angeles.
Although not mentioned in the announcements so far, our expectation is that the 717s are dead jets flying looking three or four years out, and that Qantas is looking for either a really good price from Embraer or will opt to 'misuse' 737s/A320s on routes that are at this stage too big for them.
BoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1588 posts, RR: 18 Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9895 times:
Quoting QF744 (Thread starter): Mr Dixon said Qantas wanted a modern fleet that provided maximum flexibility, lower seat mile costs, greater fuel efficiency and the opportunity to introduce the next generation of inflight services.
Ok, everything Mr. Dixon points out here Boeing has but Airbus does not or has half measures. I dunno... but I think this is all Boeing to me...
SunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 3955 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9860 times:
This RFP seems to rule out the 747ADV at this time. Of course the operative words in the press release are " first stage of a fleet renewal program" and " in production or under development". Thus a later request tailored to the 747ADV is a possibility.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9825 times:
Sunrise Valley,
Qantas is quite hostile to the 747ADV in that it has had its time wasted too often by attempted reincarnations of our much loved jumbo. And Yes it appears very happy with the -400ER. It just doesn't see room for anything between an A380 and a larger capacity model in the 787/777 or A350 ranges.
Now it could be making a mistake, but I'm just conveying the vibes as we get them.
A crucial element of the 744 ADV is having to wait until the technology in the 787 migrates to the 'ultimate' jumbo. If I have a personal view on this it is that Boeing will in fact do an all new very high capacity jet, but i hasten to do, I do not have any contacts with Boeing that have inspired that view. It is what I would like to see Boeing do, not what I know they will do.
Sydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2377 posts, RR: 18 Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9634 times:
Quoting Antares (Reply 3): 40 options remaining on A320s which seem most likely to replace the 734s and allow for growth
Surely the 40 A320 options are for Jetstar and its various incarnations around the place. Given the number of 734's covering Canberra and Adelaide for Cityflyer I'd have thought a mix 738's and A320's would replace these to allow the leisure routes to go to Jetstar and the trunk ones to remain mainline.
Quoting Antares (Reply 3): The 767s and we think in the longer term A330s will be removed from the mix,
I think we can conclude an order for a mix of variants of the 787 is on the way. I can't see Boeing letting this RFP get away from them.
Quoting Antares (Reply 6): And Yes it appears very happy with the -400ER
I'd have thought with SFO opening that there would be a follow on order for maybe another pair of 744ER's. Otherwise isn't SYD-SFO going to suffer the same kind of paylod restrictions that MEL-LAX suffers???
BBD From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9601 times:
Re the comment by Sydscott regarding SYD-SFO suffering the same payload restrictions that MEL-LAX suffers without the 747ER:
I think that SYD-SFO is actually marginally shorter than SYD-LAX.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9569 times:
Sydscott,
Some significant hints were apparently dropped at the media briefing that Jetstar is about to be 'unleashed' as the vehicle for cultural change at Qantas.
Qantas has had ample experience of the 737-800 and the A320, and however the results are cut and diced the Airbus is superior in every operating scenario they see as likely. Not by much, but enough.
In relation to SFO, yes, it is a slightly shorter route than LAX.
I'm told by a person who was there that Dixon also said Qantas had observed that the A380 was meeting all of its performance objectives so far, and that if it continued to do so, it would deliver Qantas a very significant operational advantage on those routes where it intended to use it.
He alluded to the willingness of Airbus to make significant penalty payments for late delivery.
However on the other side of the argument, we have heard nothing other than very strong interest from inside Qantas for a Boeing solution to the RFP for 60-100 medium sized jets.
Sq212 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9446 times:
Looks like a copy of AC fleet acquisition proposal?
Jupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 757 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9404 times:
With no offence to the A350 intended, I cannot see it winning this deal, nor the versions of the 340. If the 330's have proved to big for domestic services, how could they justify ordering the 350 when it is bigger than the 330 ??
I see the 787 being the widebody of choice in this region in the near future, plying their way across the domestic skies, trans Tasman and the Asian routes, with all versions being acquired, by both QF and NZ.
As for the larger aircraft, the 777 will most likely win, but I suspect it will be a closer competition than the 787/350 battle, and I put that purely down to pricing by Airbus. While most would agree the 777 range is superior in operational capabilities, it would most likely hang on what Boeing will do price wise.
However, I firmly believe this will be an all Boeing affair, 783's, 788's and 789's, 773ER's and a bigger than expected number of 772LR's (8-10). Of course it is all purely wishful thinking !!
As for the 320 and 738 options held, surely the 320's will be for Jetstar growth and the 738's (or 739's) be for mainline ? If nothing else to differentiate the two airlines.
RL
777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11319 posts, RR: 17 Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9345 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Didn't QF go with the A320 for JQ due to the fact that QF domestic is B737 because JQ staff would demand same pay rate as B737 crew? Also because QF wanted A320s also because DJ operate B737s. So A320 options will be for JQ and B737 options for QF
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9298 times:
It is true that the original decision on the JQ fleet was based on industrial relations decisions as 777ER says.
But the reading I'm getting on everything management has said today is that Jetstar was always the start of an overhaul of work practices and processes that is going to be rolled right over the top of current Qantas mainline practices and conditions.
That doesn't mean the miseries of flying Jetstar are going to be extended to the Cityflyer services, or that Jetstar will stay precisely the way it is today. We'll have to wait and see how the product side pans out. The major EBAs come up for renegotiation in 2007, so all bets as to different jets for different work forces will be off well before then.
For Qantas to make the future work as it intends, the work place reforms it is aiming for will have to implimented in every aspects of its business. Jetstar was just the proving ground.
QF744 From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 413 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9287 times:
I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see A320s in QF cls. Look at the Air NZ/Freedom Air mix from that order. Guess it will come down to cabin crew and pilot pay!
I also agree that Airbus is pretty much out of the mix for the "ultra long-haul" aircraft for hub-busting. Dixon has seemed pretty keen on the 777-200LR and it certainly seems like the best solution for QF.
Would be interested to see if they order a couple more 744ERs, but would they not use 773ERs on SYD-SFO services, rather than order more 744s? I would think that the 773 has just enough seats for the route, especially when taking the plane on to YVR.
Also interesting to see if they "re-launch" the Chicago services with a new "hub-buster" aircraft... I know that SYD-JFK non-stop would be a fantastic addition for QF, as would a European run like SYD-CDG or MEL-MUC to avoid SIN.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9235 times:
Quoting BBD (Reply 8): I think that SYD-SFO is actually marginally shorter than SYD-LAX.
60nm or so, plus it is more north-south, which can change the wind calculations a bit.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9145 times:
I think the 773 is much more admired in terms of applicability to Qantas than the 772-LR. The fuel equations are shocking at current prices for any ultra long haul aircraft no matter how efficient when it comes to the differences between full loads in one jet refuelling part way and a smaller jet skewed to a shrinking premium fare base trying to burn fuel to carry fuel to save a few hours at most once a day, and doing bugger all for the passengers who used to connect to existing Qantas flights in either Singapore or Sydney.
Qantas doesn't fly to Singapore for the local market. It flies there to consolidate and exchange traffic from other Australian cities...in the main.
Chicago at the moment doesn't cut the mustard because it wouldn't have the frequency or flexibility of multiple arrivals in LAX with multiple onward connections on AA.
Things change in time of course. But we have to confront the reality of fuel prices at levels where not even Qantas is going to get significant hedging benefits.
Malb777 From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 462 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9048 times:
Quoting 777ER (Reply 12): Didn't QF go with the A320 for JQ due to the fact that QF domestic is B737 because JQ staff would demand same pay rate as B737 crew? Also because QF wanted A320s also because DJ operate B737s. So A320 options will be for JQ and B737 options for QF
That was the opinion I was under as well , so I cant see things being any different now
thank god i was not born a bird. this type of flying is much better
Avalon From Australia, joined May 2005, 87 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8978 times:
The A340s do not receive much support here, I note.
Would not the A345 have the advantage of 4 engines over long ocean flights to North (& South) America, as well as to South Africa?
I have read convincing entries from Antares on several occasions that QF prefers 4 engine planes on these flight paths, as well as on trans Tibet routes.
A345s would have the advantage of commonality with the imminent A380 fleet. Everyone seems to be agreed that the 777s are superior to the A340s - is this personal preference or is there evidence somewhere to justify this that I just cannot come across?
Hub-Busting: just which hubs are to be busted? If you cannot fly direct non-stop to London, what other cities are worth aiming for non-stop? SYD-FRA would probably be too marginal if SYD-LHR is too far, so what other destinations further east in Europe would have enough business traffic to support non-stop flights from SYD or MEL? Perhaps Middle Eastern destinations would be aimed for...
Perhaps hub busting would occur mainly to North America - but flying past the coastal cities of LAX, SFO or YVR would probably only work for one or two cities at most.
A320s/B738s - QF have often stated the aim of minimising the different fleet types. If the A320 were introduced to mainline QF operations, would it have to be with the ultimate goal of replacing all the 737s, including the 738s which are still so new to the fleet and in quite high numbers as well?
Would it be no big deal to replace all the 737s with A320s?
If the A320 came in at one end, and the A380 at the top, in an environment that desires minimisation of fleet types, and with Airbus "compensating" QF for A380 delays, Boeing could possibly be squeezed out. The only ace I would see them having up their sleeve is that perhaps the 783 would have the advantage of smaller wing span, allowing it to fit into more gates at Australian domestic airports - but I do not know for a fact whether the A350 would be too wide of wing. Even if so, it could still be cheaper to have the domestic gates modified to take wider winged planes, which could advantage other planes besides the A350, such as the A330s.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8863 times:
Avalon,
I think the A345 is a lovely jet to fly on, but we are talking orders for delivery from no sooner than 2010 and maybe a bit later, so things will have moved on.
The 787 family is the one to beat in terms of superior cabin amenity and assuming Boeing delivers on specs,it seems a likely winner for the order.
I don't know whether the 777 will get a look in, I suspect it will, and my guess is the order will be all or predominantly placed for the -300ER and then supplemented by 787-3s and 787-9s.
Airbus has seen fit not to make the cabin amenity of the A350 competitive even with its own A380, so tough...
I also think Airbus will score more orders for the A320 and A380 from Qantas, which has a compelling need for the large jet regardless of what the gurus in America say about fragmentation.
Yes, Qantas needs quads for those routes you mention, but South America and South Africa do not generate the traffic to justify a separate fleet of A340-600s unless they were almost given away by Toulouse. You never know. If they aren't being given away Qantas would keep its last 744s for those routes, even if they were a bit big until traffic levels rose.
You make some good points about the terminals too, but we expect by then Qantas will have sold its terminals (they have been on the market for several years now but at unrealistic prices) so the wingspan issues will be the new owner's problem.
Toulouse has a steep climb to place the A350 with Qantas, but will score the extra A320 and A380 orders without any problem in my current reading of the outlook.
Avalon From Australia, joined May 2005, 87 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8775 times:
Antares,
Thanks for your post - they are always very interesting & I have noticed you haven't been around for a while - hope you are feeling better
Do you think that QF (excluding Jetstar) will move to a mixed fleet of 737s and A320s, or replace all the 737s with A320s?
Also, although not wanting to harp on about the A340s, I have noticed that Airbus are planning on a reworking of the wing (as a result of the A380/A350 developments, I believe, though I cannot find the link unfortunately). I believe the A345 can fly farther than the 744ER; but beyond that, do you know if they offer significantly better economics than the 744/744ER?
QFA001 From Australia, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 673 posts, RR: 54 Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8764 times:
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 7): Surely the 40 A320 options are for Jetstar and its various incarnations around the place. Given the number of 734's covering Canberra and Adelaide for Cityflyer I'd have thought a mix 738's and A320's would replace these to allow the leisure routes to go to Jetstar and the trunk ones to remain mainline.
I think that you're spot-on, Sydscott. There is a number of routes that QF uses B737-400s on now that would not fit the JQ business model. Having said that, there are also a number of routes that would be more conducive to the JQ business model. So, a mix it will be. Eventually, both QF and JQ should have about the same number of B737-800s and A320s, respectively.
Quoting Antares (Reply 9): Qantas has had ample experience of the 737-800 and the A320, and however the results are cut and diced the Airbus is superior in every operating scenario they see as likely. Not by much, but enough.
If that is true, then QF won't buy more B737-800s. Let's see what happens.
Quoting 777ER (Reply 12): Didn't QF go with the A320 for JQ due to the fact that QF domestic is B737 because JQ staff would demand same pay rate as B737 crew?
That is one of the reasons. All things considered, though, the easiest means of understanding what QF has B737NGs and JQ has A320s is that the A320s allowed JQ to differentiate itself. That includes labour contracts, but also other items such as marketing. For example, I'm not sure where you are based, but in Australia some of the JQ advertising campaigns have concentrated on the extra width of the A320 seats.
Quoting Avalon (Reply 18): Would not the A345 have the advantage of 4 engines over long ocean flights to North (& South) America, as well as to South Africa?
Yes. However, it is for a limited time only. Expanded ETOPS is coming.
Quoting Avalon (Reply 18): A345s would have the advantage of commonality with the imminent A380 fleet.
Nay. There is no useful commonality between the A340 and A380. Not even in the cockpit. If QF were to buy A340s, they would not be able to use the same pilot pool as for the A380s. In terms of spares, the A380 is a totally different airplane with very few parts the same.
Quoting Avalon (Reply 18): Everyone seems to be agreed that the 777s are superior to the A340s - is this personal preference or is there evidence somewhere to justify this that I just cannot come across?
It can be very easily justified. The B777 uses less fuel to fly faster, farther and higher carrying more payload. So long as the price tag from Boeing is right, the A340 just won't be in this ballgame.
Quoting Avalon (Reply 18): Hub-Busting: just which hubs are to be busted?
The looming 800lb gorilla for QF are the sixth-freedom airlines (eg. EK, EY, QR) with Mid-Eastern hubs as well as the current crop of competitors based in SE Asia. The ULR requirement is designed to combat those carriers.
To the east, a lot of people are talking about QF bypassing LAX. Well, that may be true, but I think that they have missed one: AKL. AKL is NZ's hub. Their goal is to use AKL as a 'one-stop' hub to points in North and South America from Australia using smaller airplanes such as the B787. By having access to multiple non-stop points in the US, QF would be defending itself against the future NZ plan. Also, if a thorough AU-US Open Skies came into existence, it would also protect QF against a US Major using one of their major hubs to route traffic to Australia.
IMHO, the hand that QF has shown today is late but it's good. I believe that their strategy is going to be a good one.
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4524 posts, RR: 25 Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8719 times:
Personally, I am betting on Qantas announcing the order in conjunction with the 85th anniversary in November.
I think the reason for international expansion is that that is where the money is to be made. Domestically, the only increases will come from lowering costs, where internationally, it will come from opening up new routes and expanding in order to make more money.
At a guess, I would say that the high fuel prices are what is forcing Qantas' hand at this point in time. They need to expand in order to make more profit to offset the increase in fuel costs. It makes perfect sense to me.
Bypassing traditional hubs - traditional hubs to me says Singapore. Where else does Qantas have a "traditional hub" ? Bypassing Singapore could mean the end of certain code share agreements and opening services to the Middle East, perhaps, and also perhaps opening up more European destinations. I can see SFO being expanded, and perhaps other US and Canadian routes being served direct.
My bet is absolutely on the 777/787. I will be completely and utterly shocked if it goes with Airbus. Airbus are going to get a lot of Qantas business with the A380s if performance specifications are met (and every indications says they will be), so it's hardly as though they're losing out.
Either way, it's all very exciting
Trent.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
USAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1411 posts, RR: 53 Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7948 times:
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 22): My bet is absolutely on the 777/787. I will be completely and utterly shocked if it goes with Airbus.
Absolutely agree with you... And to further that, I'm predicting the GE will be the engine supplier for the new aircraft. I'm thinking that they'll order 40 aircraft total, with options on another 20.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
25 ClassicLover: I'll disagree and guess - RR for the 787/350 class, and GE for the 777/340 class (but do GE supply for the 340? I honestly don't know...) Trent.
26 Keesje: VP Airbus Flight Division : That is the point of the A380’s flight control system: to make the aircraft respond as much like other Airbus types as
27 Dhefty: Do you have any facts to back up this claim? And I don't mean pilot contract issues. Most wingleted B737NG's are performing better than expected and
28 N328KF: That doesn't sound like a good idea, since the pilot will have to handle various aspects of the landing differently between an A340-300 and an A380.
29 Avalon: What are your facts to back up this claim?
30 BCAInfoSys: Are there any modified pictures of an A319 with blended winglets? I think that'd be pretty funny to see!
31 M27: Actually, He doesn't need to provide any facts! He clearly said it was His opinion, as opposed to- By the way, who is the WE that Antares keeps refer
32 ClassicLover: Him and his company. I believe he is a financial analyst or an analyst of some kind. Trent.
33 Avalon: Of course he needs to provide facts or evidence or a basis for his opinion - otherwise it is meaningless - regardless of what anyone else is saying i
34 M27: Maybe he will when Antares presents his! Nope! Just saying He did not need to provide any facts here because none were provided to him.
35 Dhefty: Antares, you state that the A320 outperforms the B737NG "...in every operating scenario that they see likely...". Prior to the winglet program, the A3
36 Avalon: sounds like you are promoting tit-for-tat game-playing It would help if you stated when the winglet program began. Through July (meaning within the m
37 FlyingHippo: I think he means from Jan 1 2005 until July 31st of 2005... I don't think anyone would provide July 2004 figures. It's funny that if you are a pro-Ai
38 Dhefty: OK, poor choice of words. Sorry about that. What I'm really trying to find out is the source of performance comparisons indicated by Antares in reply
39 USAF336TFS: GE is going to fight hard on this one, as I think they need a large order for the GenX powerplant. Obviously, if Qantas does go for the A350 (Which I
40 Antares: Dhefty, You can ask again all you like but when I'm asleep in Australia I couldn't give a toss. The A320 in Qantas group situations is ahead of the 73
41 Karan69: Just a bit curious, with almost 40 widebodies expected to be coming into the fleet of QF, where can we see the expansion. Apart from the American mark
42 Karan69: Just a bit curious, with almost 40 widebodies expected to be coming into the fleet of QF, where can we see the expansion. Apart from the American mark
43 Avalon: Antares, Do you think QF might sell off its entire 737 fleet and replace it with A320s? Of course it is possible and I guess that if at the end of it
44 N60659: Well, you have to consider a few points here: Depending on when orders are placed, deliveries are not expected till 2007/2008 at the earliest. At whi
45 Antares: Avalon, For what it is worth I wouldn't expect Qantas to dispose of young 738s anytime soon. But the sentiment seems to be not to add many, or even an
46 Dhefty: But what about relative fuel economy, assuming similar acquistion costs?
47 Irishpower: Is QF really considering coming back to SFO??
48 Avalon: It has been stated on other threads that this is the case. Go to the News section of the QF website and you can read all about it.
49 QFA001: The A380 may drive like a Toyota for all I care. I will just repeat what I said: the A340 and A380 won't be able to use the same pilot pool at QF. Th
50 Sydscott: I'll add my 2 bobs worth in and say "measurable financial benefit" in QF terms includes an implied threat to the mainline pilots and FA's who exclusi
51 QFA001: Well, no pilots are exclusive to the B737-800. QF has a common pool for all the B737s. Furthermore, AIPA (the pilot union also representing QF) has b
52 Sydscott: I'll argue that one by saying the only reason that the 734's are required at peak times with their J class is because Qantas, by their management of
53 Antares: Sydscott, I believe QBT lost the major Federal parliament account some time back, but Qantas kept the flights when the account management went to SYNE
54 AirRyan: Northwest Airlines is now in fact beginning to put together a team to enhance the thorough analysis of both short and long term fleet plans. I have n
55 Sydscott: Which was exactly my point. If you have these sorts of deals coming on stream then DJ will be back to take advantage which means our pollies are goin
56 Dhefty: That is finally what I was waiting to hear. As I said in Reply 46, "assuming similar acquisition costs", which as the present time are probably very
57 Antares: Dhefty, Without necessarily arguing some of the useful things everyone has offered on this, the A320 per se is somewhat smaller in dimensions than the
58 QF744: What's all this talk that QF would go for the A340 because of fleet commonality with the A380? Makes more sense to me that the 737, 767 and 747 Boeing
59 QFA001: I wouldn't hold your breath. The appearance of DJ on CBR routes didn't sway the politicians to voluntarily reduce their class of travel. I don't beli
60 AirRyan: So "your" airline posts a paltry billion dollar profit over the last year and suddenly your a critic! Congrats to Qantas! NWA will be fine so long as
61 Sydscott: That and the fact that the 787 is a "real" airplane whereas the A350 isn't. Also QF undoubtably has been kept in the technical loop by Boeing during
62 Keesje: QFA001, glad to see you saw your error & adjusted your claim by narrowing to QF
63 Mariner: I have no idea what that means. cheers mariner
64 Shenzhen: I really can't see how the A320 would have an advantage with regard to airport handling (and I assume you mean containerized, not palleted luggage).
65 QFA001: Smell the roses, Keesje. I said that the A340 and A380 have no useful commonality in the cockpit and then qualified that by saying there won't be a c
66 Avalon: Who can say what all the criteria are for QF when assessing the 738 against the A320...."potable water uplift", "ease of service", etc, etc... But wh
67 Shenzhen: The only reason I asked was he stated it. and I really can't imagine much being common between these two airplanes, except maybe the blankets. Didn't
68 Antares: Did a bit of checking. Not only does Qantas think the A320 is the better jet, but Virgin Blue came to a similar conclusion, but having started off wit
69 Sq212: Shenzhen, Related to your reply, I believed CZ currently operates quite a number A320's and B738's. Many are still awaiting delivery from both manufac
70 Avalon: "at this time" - at what time? You have not make yourself very clear...are you quoting me as saying "at this time", because it is not in my text - so
71 Shenzhen: Virgin Blue thought the A320 was better, but purchased the 737-800 because they simply felt it was easier to operate a type that they had a "little"
72 Shenzhen: I really don't know what could be common on these two airplanes, except so ARINC 429 avionics, maybe VHF antennas and such. I doubt that Qantas would
73 Avalon: I think it is a mistake to try and make out that either plane (738 or A320) has some advantage in an absolute form. Clearly, they compete very closel
75 Shenzhen: I've heard that China Eastern may also place a large 737NG order in the near future. These guys didn't operate 737s until the the Gov merged a lot of
76 Sydscott: Quite simply it means the 787 has fuselage sections being manufactured for it and an assembly line coming online. The A350 does not. You'll probably
77 QFA001: You have no disagreement from me. I am just alluding to the fact that the politicians are unlikely to give up their preferred class of travel. Beside
78 Dhefty: But what do you mean exactly by "cost base"? Are you including salaries, for instance? Obviously an airline with higher pilot and personnel costs wil
79 Sydscott: Cost base menas exactly that. The base of costs that have to be covered before the airline can make a profit on any service. See above I said "cost b
80 Dhefty: You didn't answer the question. If you operate both types and they cost the same to buy, and if salaries, etc., are equal, then which is cheaper to o
81 Udo: If, if and if again. Apparently both types are quite equal, otherwise one would dramatically outsell the other. What a lame and senseless discussion.
82 Sydscott: That's not a question that Qantas needs to answer because salaries for both types are not the same, acquisition costs are different, the stage length
83 M27: Sydscott: Are you saying that Jetstar is going to operate 320's and Qantas will operate 737's regardless? Because if this is not what you mean, then t
84 Sydscott: That's exactly how it will be for the forseeable future. Jetstar will operate A320's and QF mainline will operate the 737's. The only question is tha
85 M27: Thanks Sydscott: I had read through the posts and thought that was what you where saying, but there were a couple of posts where I was not certain. So
86 QFA001: I think we agree, but I guess I want to make sure. If the politicians do downgrade their class of travel, then certainly A320s or B737-800s into CBR
87 Monteycarlos: But that is not part of this RFP. From all I have heard that won't be considered until the RFP in question has been decided. Incidentally, DJ were of
88 Antares: Montycarlos, The last thing I heard was that the four initial A332s with the unique lightweight floor were being brought back to normal spec at a cost
89 QFA001: OTOH, DJ later regretted not being able to (realistically) acquire A321s for their BNE-MEL-SYD services. Having said that, the B737-900ER is now a re
90 Sydscott: Seems like a good way to make the India route daily doesn't it?? Us an airplane with half the capacity of the current one and double your frequency o
91 Monteycarlos: In their "current" financial position I don't think they can hope for too much in the way of new equipment. It would be good to see a -900ER in Austr
92 Sydscott: I think Backpackers Express would have been closer to Jetstar heavy. (Minus drunken backpackers etc) LOL Seriously though would you want to fly Jetst
93 Antares: QFA001, Qantas told analysts it would spend $70 million of its own money to correct the situation with the A330s. I'd put the whole saga down to a sig
94 SunriseValley: Antares.....wasn't the original 330 deal done in haste so that QF could deliver the final knock out punch to Ansett? As it turned out the Ansett insid
95 Antares: SunriseValley, I don't believe so. The A330 deal came with the A380 deal. As I recall Qantas told shareholders i think in 2002 that the first four jet
96 QFA001: Phew! I believe that QF has some level of positive interest. However, I have also heard that they would like to keep their B737 standardised on the -
97 QFA001: Well, back in May, then once in each of June and July, you told us that the A332 floors were going to be a A$75m fix. So, if you are right then you h
98 Antares: QFA001, I don't often loose $5 million but thanks for that. The money was for ripping out the special lightweight floor and replacing it with the stan
99 Sydscott: QF don't really have the need to invest in the 739 when compared to DJ. QF can call in a 767 if they need extra capacity wheras DJ only has the 737's
100 Antares: Sydscott, Read the following figures and tell me again how badly Virgin Blue is doing. Then tell me how they would have done had as Branson claims, Co
101 Antares: In addition to my reminder that away from the popular inability to see through misinformation about the performances of Qantas and Virgin Blue there i
102 Sydscott: Antares I didn't criticise Virgin Blue at all and find your rebuke over the top and excessive. What I said was that Richard Branson should be careful
103 Antares: Sydscott, Branson makes it clear in his many interviews this morning that he did not have control of VBA. which is not surprising given his role as a
104 Sydscott: Of course he would make light of not having control of the airline because if he admits complicity in the Board decisions then he undermines his "I c
105 Antares: Sydscott, Check carefully. DJ was hedged in the year to March 31, 03 and again in 04. Its average trade in fuel is reported to have been around the eq
106 Sydscott: Which again brings me back to my point. Richard Branson does not have a track record of building shareholder wealth in ANY of the airlines he has bee
107 QFA001: Next time you're going to lose $5m, please allow me to forward you my bank account details for deposit. QF didn't need to dump the -200s as an altern
108 Antares: Don't think you guys have read the bits in quotes this morning. But like me you no doubt have jobs to do. Unless Branson is lying, he claims to have s
109 Sydscott: I'll agree with you there. Sir Richard is very good at making money for himself. If I had time I'd go see if I can find some profit figures for Virgi
110 Antares: It is true that BA was not in good shape when Eddington took over. It is probably also true that the experience of being a BA customer is not all that
111 Antares: Somewhere in the depths of this thread we were side tracked, possibly by myself, over the issue of upgrading the A332s. There is a very confused story
112 QFA001: To me, the figure looks reasonable, so long as it doesn't include the actual cabin upgrade but just the floors. However, the article alluded that the
113 Sydscott: Now we have some of Corrigans side of the story at least. http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,16363801-462,00.html ------------------------------
114 Antares: Sydscott, I don't think SRB is listening. But if he gets his way with VBA the domestic scene is likely to become more exciting. I recall Corrigan tell
115 AvObserver: "Inside word has it that Boeing has the edge because of the 777-200LR's increased capabilities over the A340-500." Irrespective of the individual mode
116 QF744: Antares, I think the junior reporter is right! Bali and Honolulu, two destinations already flagged for Jetstar would be ideal for QF (not for some of
117 Antares: If it works its good. Brand wise Australian seems, um, more Australian to me when you are trying to cater for inbound as well as outbound. Perhaps it
118 Shenzhen: Could the difference in cost be between Airbus providing a Service Bulletin vs another source providing a STC for the midification? When I was workin
119 Miami1: Jetstar employees get long service leave, as do most Australian workers. Is a Z day neither a day off or a work day? Jetstar have 'duty-free days', or
120 Shenzhen: At the time, I believe Qantas unions had negotiated a 38 hour work week but still worked 40. Because of the extra 2 hours per week, they received an
121 Sydscott: I'd have thought it makes more sense to do the opposite considering the saleability if the assets. Sell the ports and infrastructure businesses to on
122 Antares: Sydscott, It could work either way. There will be scenarios a plenty being worked over in Toll, Patrick and the Virgin Group. Even if the Toll bid is
123 RichardJF: I always thought Chris Corrigan and Paul Little were best buddies?
124 Sydscott: They have a joint venture in rail but business is business as they say. I'll agree with you there. Patrick as a group is in play and now that it is h
125 QF744: Hang on here - I'm just agreeing with what Qantas executives have said... the A332s can't be upgraded to carry Skybed without a $20 million spend on
126 Sydscott: Ah it's an SMH story you are going from. I'm not a reader of it but i went and searched for the article your referring to and actually Peter Gregg sa
127 QF744: I think we will see JQ flying longer routes than we first thought. So, they will have to look at long-haul aircraft to be able to fly them. This is wh
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