This happened to me a few months ago:

I was seated in the gate area in my airline uniform waiting for my plane to arrive.

A woman in her mid-to-late 50's is seated with about 6 to 7 other people next to me. She leans over and asks me if I could answer a question for her. I said sure.

She says, "Why are airfares so high now?"

Astonished, I asked her how she came to that conclusion. "Becuase I had to pay $50 more this year than last year to go see my grandkids in California." I asked her how much she had paid and after she told me I responded that the fare she paid should have been at least twice that much. I told her how rediculously cheap airfare is in relation to other services we buy and how airfares are as cheap as they were 20 to 30 years ago.

I can see that I'm not getting through to her. She is holding a large (venti) cup of Starbucks coffee. Then I remember a conversation another pilot and I had about how the price of starbucks versus airfare. I asked the woman how much she had paid for her cup of Starbucks. About $5 was her reply. To which I responded that a cup of coffee 20 to 30 years ago was about 5 cents. I told her that she is now willingly paying 100 times more for coffee now than she was 30 years ago and yet she is complaining about a 20% mark up on a fare that has been held artificially low for over 20 years?

I mentioned to her that if she were to have a large cup of Starbucks everyday of the month, it would cost her $150. And yet she's complaining about an extra fifty clams she had to shell out for the safety, and convience of being transported to California at over 500 miles an hour?

She and her companions grew strangely silent. I excused myself to go preflight her plane to California. After an ontime departure, smooth flight, grease-job landing and timely arrival at LAX I stood at the door of our airplane and thanked her for flying with us. She was shocked to see that the pilot was me.

Commerical airline flying is the best deal out there right now, despite the headaches and hassles we all have to put up with now. Please, keep flying and thanks to all who read this message. I look forward to your comments.

Brett

It's simple that people look for any reason to complain, espeically when they don't understnad what they are talking about. They then will contradict themselves jsut so they can look cool, like buying designer coffee (not that Starbucks is bad, but paired with her complaint....you get the idea).

Amen brother, preach on.....

I have to admit because of the low airfares alot more people are flying who certainly deserve to be on the bus. Very low in the common sense department: (what do you mean I missed my flight it doesn't leave for 6 minutes, you cant hold it?)

I'll have to remember that Starbucks (I refer to it as FourBucks) analogy, very apt to this situation.

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter): Commerical airline flying is the best deal out there right now, despite the headaches and hassles we all have to put up with now. Please, keep flying and thanks to all who read this message. I look forward to your comments.

Amen. In very few instances is the train or the car a reasonable alternative for me (basically between Boston and New York, and even then, flying is often the best choice for me). I don't mind paying a little bit more this year...after all, oil is quite a bit higher this year than it was last year; it wouldn't be reasonable for me to expect to be paying the same fare that I did in the past...this year, I was booking my SEA trip, with me paying about $50 more this year on a transcontinental trip from GSO. Would I like that $50 in my pocket? Who doesn't? But I understand that it's going to cost DL a little bit more money to haul me across the country this year than it did last year, and even more than 2 years ago. Do I think $325 for a GSO-SEA round-trip is acceptable? You bet - I'd love for it to be the good ole' $200 days, but making 4 cents/mile in revenue (for a $200) is unacceptable...it wouldn't be wise for pretty much any airline to sell that seat in this environment.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 3): But I understand that it's going to cost DL a little bit more money to haul me across the country this year than it did last year, and even more than 2 years ago. Do I think $325 for a GSO-SEA round-trip is acceptable? You bet - I'd love for it to be the good ole' $200 days, but making 4 cents/mile in revenue (for a $200) is unacceptable...it wouldn't be wise for pretty much any airline to sell that seat in this environment.

Spot on! Very well put.

Your right on mate, just take a look at the aviation boom in India, in 2003 --3 yrs ago there were just two carriers AI and BA plying the ever popular London-Mumbai route, the lowest fare brackets in Y used to start at around 35K [700$ approx] now since there are nearly 8-9 non-stops a day on that route the lowest fare brackets start at around 16K [350$ approx] extending to 35K, which used to be the then highest fare,

and still you will hear people who used to fly BA and AI at a rate of 700-800$ whine when they cant get their ticket at 350-400$.

You gave a very appropraite reply to that lady, thanks for sharing with us.

Karan

Quoting BigPhilNYC (Reply 1): not that Starbucks is bad

Yes it is, and I got really pissed when I found one in the forbidden city in Beijing, close to blasphemy!

Back on topic I can understand her feelings, a 5$ cup of java doesn't make trhat much of an impact on your budget, but 50$ more on an airfare might. But I agree that the low price tickets go to extremes sometimes, I paid less than 50 for a return ticket to London from Malmoe Sweden, I can barely get to and from the airport for that kind of money.

Quoting Foxecho (Reply 2): I have to admit because of the low airfares alot more people are flying who certainly deserve to be on the bus.

And it's not only the cheap riders that complain, I have heard the most outrageous things in lounges and business class queues.

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 6): Quoting BigPhilNYC (Reply 1): not that Starbucks is bad Yes it is

Not it isn't. Spend some time getting educated about coffee and about the Starbucks Coffee Company (I recommend reading Pour Your Heart Into It by Howard Schultz), and you'll learn that Starbucks coffee is far from bad.

What's bad is that many people think all coffee is the same.

Anyway, this thread isn't really about coffee, so I'd better say something on topic.

It does still amaze me how cheap flying is and how static prices have remained over the last few years, especially in light of world events. Flying these days is more accessible than it's ever been, and I think it's great, but I'm awaiting the day when the prices suddenly soar and it becomes a luxury like it used to be.

you go! Americans have so been conditioned to buy on the cheap they have no idea what things really cost or whose lifestyle is substandard to theirs in order for them to maintain their standard of living.

more power to you!

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7): Flying these days is more accessible than it's ever been, and I think it's great, but I'm awaiting the day when the prices suddenly soar and it becomes a luxury like it used to be.

I don't think that will happen because the global populace is now addicted to airline travel just like it is to coffee (sorry for another coffee metaphor). As a result, if prices go too high airlines will set themselves up again for another new-comer (perhaps even government funded) that will undercut their fares.

There is considerable upward pressure on airfares right now, but I don't think that it will every return to the domain of the "rich people only". All I hope for is that prices will be more representative of what the service actually costs to produce and that airlines will be finally able to stop selling seats at a loss just to remain in the game.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7): Spend some time getting educated about coffee and about the Starbucks Coffee Company

I referred to their coffee, not the company itself. I've had an espressomaker before it became in "fashion" and always have 3-4 different kinds of whole beans at home, consider myself rather educated...

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7): I'm awaiting the day when the prices suddenly soar and it becomes a luxury like it used to be.

Considering that there is a limited supply of fuel it can't stay cheap for that many years, so it will undoubtedly become a privilige of the rich and famous and those paid by companies. So I better find myself a wealthy employer  

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8): Americans have so been conditioned to buy on the cheap they have no idea what things really cost or whose lifestyle is substandard to theirs in order for them to maintain their standard of living.

I couldn't have said it any better! I'm going to quote you the next time I'm asked about rising airfares. Thank you.

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 9): I hope for is that prices will be more representative of what the service actually costs to produce and that airlines will be finally able to stop selling seats at a loss just to remain in the game.

Well you see that's where my fear is. If every seat was sold at cost today, there would be a whole demographic of people who wouldn't be able to afford to fly. Oil is going to get any cheaper any time soon, so that's where my fear is. I too would like to see seats sold at true cost plus margin but I think that as long as it costs what it does today, it won't and can't happen unless the airlines want to price out an entire customer base.

The alternative from what I can see it to rob Peter to pay Paul - offset the cheap Y class with inflated F class. I guess that's what a lot of airlines do already. While the no-frills operators won't be able to hold this model, many of the legacy and other national carriers could possibly afford to continue to hike their F prices and reduce the FF benefits and still remain a profitable entity.

Fantastic story Brett....wish I could have seen the look on that lady's face!

It amazes me how cheap flying really is. As a matter of fact on Fox News right now, Neil Cavuto is on. The headline at the bottom of the screen says "Driving is just as expensive as flying".

Finally when gas prices go up, people start to realize this, even though it's been that way for a few years. You can't take Greyhound from JFK-LAX for the price of an airline ticket...on top of it all, you get there five days earlier.

The people that annoy me the most are the folks that think flying is a right. It is not a right, it is a privledge. There is no law that says air transportation has to be provided to you. If you don't like it - drive!

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter): To which I responded that a cup of coffee 20 to 30 years ago was about 5 cents. I told her that she is now willingly paying 100 times more for coffee now than she was 30 years ago and yet she is complaining about a 20% mark up on a fare that has been held artificially low for over 20 years?

Ding, ding, ding!! Loved your post; just wish the flying public would understand!!

Quoting IH8B6 (Reply 13): The people that annoy me the most are the folks that think flying is a right. It is not a right, it is a privledge. There is no law that says air transportation has to be provided to you. If you don't like it - drive!

Absolutely! It's a business and it should function via the rules of "supply and demand" just like other businesses. You don't have a right to get your teeth fixed for free and you don't have a right to fly from Boise to New York for $100 either.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7): and you'll learn that Starbucks coffee is far from bad.

Well the coffee itself SUCKS, the Company is not bad that I will agree with you about.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 16): Well the coffee itself SUCKS

You see, that's what I'm talking about. Coffee is like wine - people have their favourites vineyards and wineries, and dislike others. The same goes for Coffee - Starbucks get their beans from a lot of the same places as their competitors. They serve the same stuff. The problem is people don't know what bean/roast/blend they like. People often expect a Lightnote blend when they don't look up at the sign or ask what's currently brewing and realise that they're actually getting Komodo Dragon.

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter): I asked the woman how much she had paid for her cup of Starbucks. About $5 was her reply.

Wow, Starbucks coffee costs $5 a cup in an airport. That's more than twice the cost than at an off airport shop. This story doesn't add up. As an airline employee, you really thought it was a good idea to lecture a customer.

When your client complained about a higher airfare, you could have said, "Have you seen the price of gas, lately" and let it go at that. She would have have related and understood.

Instead you decided to make a fare paying passenger feel bad about asking a employee a simple question. Good move, I guess!?!

(hey, I agree with your point, just not sure it was a wise move)

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 18): Wow, Starbucks coffee costs $5 a cup in an airport

I don't know, I don't drink coffee at all. That's simply what she said. Maybe she's just approximating?

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 18): As an airline employee, you really thought it was a good idea to lecture a customer.

No lecture, just some good information she may have not thought of. You actually can talk to people kindly and still get your point accross. It's called "tact".

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 18): Good move, I guess!?

Yes. BTW, "monday morning quaterbacking" does nothing to change the intent of this thread which is that many people don't understand how much they willingly pay for some services/good and yet think they have a right to cheap airfares.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 18): When your client complained about a higher airfare, you could have said, "Have you seen the price of gas, lately" and let it go at that. She would have have related and understood.

Since she just happend to be holding a cup of Starbucks in her hand and not a gas can, I thought the she could better relate to the coffee metaphor.

Also, much more was said during our conversation, but I tried to "distill" the information down to the bare minimum for posting on this thread. I can assure you that I was very polite and did my reputation or my airline's no harm.

[Edited 2006-07-26 00:46:54]

Very nice way of looking at it.

I will be flying back home to New Jersey from Cleveland on CO during Winter Break this December for under $200 round trip. With the price of gas, it would be nearly the same amount for my parents to drive their SUV out there to get me.
People are just too negative these days. They want first class service in coach and they forget that they are flying to a distant destination and getting there sooner and possibly cheaper than if they took a car. So what if there is no movie and a hot meal, isn't the view out the window enough entertainment?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8): you go! Americans have so been conditioned to buy on the cheap they have no idea what things really cost or whose lifestyle is substandard to theirs in order for them to maintain their standard of living.

It's not just Americans, many others, especially Germans, have become just like that, to a level where they b!tch that an ink cartridege costs €12, when not even 5 years ago it cost €25. AND they will bitch if you are 10 cents more expensive than the competition.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 18): When your client complained about a higher airfare, you could have said, "Have you seen the price of gas, lately" and let it go at that. She would have have related and understood.

Doubtful. In that case, a response to the degree of "Well, then safe money elsewhere, there's no need to take your additional costs out on your customers."

I still don't understand how Ryanair offers such dirt cheap fares. Here we're saying that our fares in the US and Canada are fairly low, yet they seem expensive to me in comparison to Ryanair fares. How is this justified? Can someone shed some light on this?

I recently had someone seated next to me on the DL Shuttle to LGA complain he paid $140 r/t, but then told me in the same breath that when we got to LGA he was jumping in a cab to Long Island that would cost him about $45-50 to go 20 miles.

The funny thing about that Starbucks? It costs them 7 cents to make that cup of coffee, with 6.5 cents being the cup. Add milk for a latte and it jumps to a whopping 15 cents per cup.

but, but i need my Starbucks! They add extra special addiction to every cup, maybe the airlines can pump starbucks out of the mask instead of air. Think about the convenience, think about the premium the airlines can charge. Life is grand!

Good posting!
Although I'll buy Starbucks, but I don't know if I would consider it "good". In fact, they are corporate whores. But that is a whole different issue.

There is alittle corp whore in all of us  

Whats sad is like airlines, a good coffee house with a great environment will not have the revenue that a cookie cutter store that Starbucks is....Im guilty of contributing to this. But, I will not fly on any Airline but WN. No expecations on WN.

What happened to the market setting the prices?

AAndrew

Now if Starbucks had an airline, would that lady be happy?   

You should've told her that instead of annoying you, she ought to be screaming to her Senators/Representatives as to how the airlines have raped the pension funds of the hard working folks at the airlines.

It's more about perceived value, then people necessarily being cheap.

People will pay more for Starbucks, because they think they are getting a good value. Are they really getting a good value? Maybe or maybe not. But it doesn't matter, people are under the impression that they are getting a good value, so they will pay more.

Air travel (particularly on many legacy carriers) doesn't seem like such a good value (even though it actually is). You have surly airline employees, crowded airports, crowded airplanes, moronically complex airfare pricing rules/regulations, uncomfortable planes (CRJ!!!), hit-or-miss on-time performance and minimal in-flight service. So despite fares being relatively low, people don't perceive that they are getting a low of value from air travel. Not to mention that the legacy carriers have created a lot of ill-will over the years by gouging people in captive markets and last-minute travelers. $800 roundtrip for a 2 hour flight in a cramped CRJ isn't going to win you a lot of fans.

One reason WN has done so well is because people perceive them as providing value. Fares are reasonably priced, employees are mostly friendly, no cramped CRJ's, on-time performance is good. Is WN always the best? No. But they have done an amazing job of making people think they are.

And perception is what it really is all about.

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 9): As a result, if prices go too high airlines will set themselves up again for another new-comer (perhaps even government funded) that will undercut their fares

Keep the government out, but competition is the best thing this industry has! This is an industry in transition and teething into a new environment.

Flying is becoming a part of life for more people everyday, those old days of regulation and the rich/famous only flying are gone; thank goodness! However there will be niche carriers that will satisfy the need for those people who want to pay more for the benefit.

The market demands multiple types of carriers, its up to the carriers to realize there is no "one size fits all" and adjust for that or else we continue the dramatic rollercoaster cycle once again; which already appears IMO to be at the top and ready to roll down again.

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter): Commerical airline flying is the best deal out there right now, despite the headaches and hassles we all have to put up with now.

I totally agree. Even at peak times, you can get some good deals if you have the patience and a bit of time to do some scouting around. A couple of years ago, I was itching to visit my best friend who had just moved to Toronto (I live in Vancouver). I had a few days off over New Years, so I thought I would check out a couple of websites just for curiosity. Bingo! The first website I checked was Air Canada, I guess trying to sell of seats at the last minute - $99.00Cad
each way!
I recently travelled on AS YVR-SFO-YVR for $334.00cad return (under 300usd) and in peak season! Normal fare is about $350. each way.
In 1969, after I graduated technical school, I was 18 at the time and wanted to go to UK and Europe to live a work (ended up over there for 7 years). As a graduation gift, my dad bought me an open return ticket on AC LON-YVR, at that time is was $359.00! If you go in low season now, you can sometimes get a ticket for as little as $249.00 (plus tax of course) one way without even booking in advance.
I did work for the airlines for 25 years. I remember, though, it was always the same story: the ones who paid least for their tickets complained the loudest, so I guess things really haven't changed much.
Have great flying!
Cheeers,
Carl (AY104)

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 31): Not to mention that the legacy carriers have created a lot of ill-will over the years by gouging people in captive markets and last-minute travelers.

That's the kind of thinking that I think leads to the irrational thought process that we're talking about. Airlines function (or at least should and one time did) by supply and demand. It is a business after all. If you own the only Chevrolet dealership in town, you're going to get a higher price for your product than if there are 2 Chevy dealers in town - simple economics. It's when people start thinking that they have a "right" to cheap airfares, then suddenly any airline can be accused of "gouging" or "unreasonable last minute fares." By the way, who is to say the fare is "unreasonalble"? Often times, airlines use the fares in cities that they dominate to overcome the beating they take where they face a lot of competition in cities that they'd rather not serve but have to because everyone else does (ie. LAX, JFK etc)

For some reason, airline fares more than any other service trigger a very strong emotion when they go up, or are a lot more than you expected to pay. Is this gouging? No, it's simply your reaction to high demand for a smaller supply.

As far as a perceived value, americans have voted with their pocket books and they want Southwest fares and Southwest service, which is to say "coke and peanuts." In order to compete, the legacy carriers have responded in kind. Americans are getting, for the most part, exactly what they asked for. As for surly service and flight delays: It can be tough at times to deal with upset passengers especially when you've worked for 30 years and now your pay is cut and half and your pension is wiped out. As for delays, you can't believe how much of that is out of the hands of the airlines. Yes, we suffer from mechanical issues and staffing problems from time to time. But, the government (ATC) and weather are the biggest problems with flight delays and arrivals by far.

Taken all of this into account, the airlines are often in a "catch 22". You can't win for trying. And who gets the brunt of passengers complaints? The people who least deserve it, the employees who are on the front line working hard to get you to your destination. Take the emotion out of your expectations and try to see the airlines as businesses struggling to compete just like Ford and Chevy.

Part of the problem with airfares is that they're all over the map. One day you could pay $200 r/t from coast to coast, and then the next day you could pay $400. Airfares fluctuate up and down on a daily basis - people book early to get a good fare, or sometimes holdout to get a better airfare.

With Starbucks, you know the $4 you paid today will be the $4 you pay tomorrow and the same $4 you will pay in a year.

Airfare pricing is different than other retail - it's always changing. It's really true that each and every seat on an airplane could have potentially paid a different fare. I think this is the problem with public perception - with things always changing, and never a stable price, people think they're getting screwed no matter what. And when the airfare they've been eying for a couple days goes up $20 overnight, people really think they're getting screwed.

Lots of mistrust between the public and the airlines.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 35): . Airfares fluctuate up and down on a daily basis

Just like gasoline prices. Just like a lot of other services. But, airfares gather the most hatred. It's really quite amazing when you think about it. It's like saying, "Hey my perceived value with $4-$5 coffee is high but when it comes to airfares, my perceived value for transporting my whole body should be $200 or less."

The other day I had to take a taxi from Midway to O'Hare. Cost: $69.00 Often times, you can find airfares that cheap that cover 20 times the mileage that I rode in that taxi. Yet I didn't scream like a stuck pig over paying the taxi fare. And, I didn't have a choice to pick a competing taxi company that offered a lower fare either. And, I would bet that the driver of that taxi doesn't have to have a medical exam twice a year or a simulator check once a year either. I would also bet that the FORD P.O.S. taxi would probably fail a safety inspection 80% of the time.

When you start off thinking you're going to get screwed, you're right every time even when your not really getting screwed. And that is the problem.

Some of us would gladly pay more if the service was better...meal, alittle more room. But if the service is the same, I will go with the constant and that would be WN. For the record, I like WN. Ontime and have never been denied boarding for arriving at 29 mins before boarding.

I used to love AA and United.

Sigh, like others have said....catch 22

Was there an airline a couple of years ago that you could pay to have a good meal before the flight and have it served during the flight?

Great to see a pilot who has such an in-depth understanding of Revenue Management. If your knowledge of this is indicative of all Delta pilots then I think you guys are so far ahead of the game in being on the same page as a company. I do Revenue Management for a living and it is always a challenge to educate everyone in operations why we do what we do.

The Starbucks analogy is a good one but we forget most often the value and the true power of a brand. Starbucks has been hugely successful in creating a brand name for itself and data shows that successful brands can command 20%-200% more than their competitors. Airlines today have become a commodity and no one wants to pay more for a commodity that can be easily substituted with another one. So what made her pay $5 for coffee that she could have gotten for $1.50 at Dunkin Donuts or Peets??? The day airlines brand themselves will be the day they will reap premium profits.


cheers

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 37): Some of us would gladly pay more if the service was better...meal, alittle more room.

Excellent point and one the airlines understand. That's why you're seeing United and Delta offering a premium long haul service.

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 38): Airlines today have become a commodity and no one wants to pay more for a commodity that can be easily substituted with another one.

I totally agree. Well said.

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 38): The day airlines brand themselves will be the day they will reap premium profits.

Very true. The problem is that most when most airlines attempt this, they substitute gimmicks for brand recognition. For example, anyone remember one of the most popular brand recognition slogans ever for an airline? "Fly the freindly skies of United" ring a bell? Then they dropped that when they bought a series of hotels and tried to re-brand their company as "Allegis", remember that? What a fiasco!

How about Western Airlines: "The only way to fly."
Delta: "We love to fly, and it shows."

Where have all the good airline ads and slogans gone?

Don't get me wrong, slogans don't equal branding yourself but they aid in distinguishing your company above others which help develop your brand within the mind of your customers. The only brand recognition that readily comes to mind for me when I think of airline ads now is the seat-belt "ding" that Southwest has used so effectively.

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 38): The Starbucks analogy is a good one but we forget most often the value and the true power of a brand. Starbucks has been hugely successful in creating a brand name for itself and data shows that successful brands can command 20%-200% more than their competitors. Airlines today have become a commodity and no one wants to pay more for a commodity that can be easily substituted with another one. So what made her pay $5 for coffee that she could have gotten for $1.50 at Dunkin Donuts or Peets??? The day airlines brand themselves will be the day they will reap premium profits.

And that's exactly what Delta Management has been telling employees in regards to the direction they wish to take the "new Delta".

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter): This happened to me a few months ago:

Nice post thanks

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 39): Don't get me wrong, slogans don't equal branding yourself but they aid in distinguishing your company above others which help develop your brand within the mind of your customers.

You're right. It doesn't make or break a brand, but if you can get the verbiage right, the slogan right, you've made a huge leap towards distinguishing yourself as a brand. A product is a commodity, a brand is a promise. A product IS something, but a brand stands FOR something. It is a statement, it is a story, it is a message by which customers relate to you and your business. The biggest challenge for any branding company is to be able to deliver the promise.

There are many examples of great brands, but sadly few of them are airlines. I do still think that Song was one of the most successful experiments in branding an airline. It was a promise, that Song made to their customers, to provide, state of the art technology, point to point service, quality food on board (even if it was for purchase), a different fun attitude than the legacy carriers and all that at very straight forward, upfront pricing structure that was honest. Anyway, going off on a tangent here, but I still believe that Delta has done it before with Song and it can do it again. So to answer your question with a question, when will Delta be Starbucks?

cheers

p.s. Thank you for adding me to your RU list.   

Quoting 77411 (Reply 40): And that's exactly what Delta Management has been telling employees in regards to the direction they wish to take the "new Delta".

Has it? If it is we're not seeing it. Delta needs brand managers who can maintain a whole meaning system for its customers. A long term plan to deliver a message that Delta stands for something in today's marketplace. I don't think Delta has found that message yet. Trust me, we'll all know when it does.

cheers

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 41): You're right. It doesn't make or break a brand, but if you can get the verbiage right, the slogan right, you've made a huge leap towards distinguishing yourself as a brand. A product is a commodity, a brand is a promise. A product IS something, but a brand stands FOR something. It is a statement, it is a story, it is a message by which customers relate to you and your business. The biggest challenge for any branding company is to be able to deliver the promise.

Once again, I agree completely. BTW, send your resume to Delta Air Lines, Virginia Ave, Atlanta, GA.

Quoting 77411 (Reply 40): And that's exactly what Delta Management has been telling employees in regards to the direction they wish to take the "new Delta"

You are correct also. We've been hearing this message loud and clear from management. Problem is, it's going to take a while to turn the U.S.S. Delta around. We are starting to see evidence of it though. In the latest J.D. Powers survey Delta was #2, behind Contintental for legacy carriers. Do you know what the point difference was between CO and DL? Two points. Pretty good for a carrier in bankruptcy.

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 42): Delta needs brand managers who can maintain a whole meaning system for its customers. A long term plan to deliver a message that Delta stands for something in today's marketplace. I don't think Delta has found that message yet.

Absolutely right. I think we've got a long way to go.

The whole thing comes to ONE problem people...

DELTA.

Quoting COEXpilot (Reply 44): The whole thing comes to ONE problem people... DELTA.

Well...not sure where you're going with that one, but if you mean to say that everyone would be better of and a lot more comfortable in your EMB-145 I'd have to disagree.

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 45): Well...not sure where you're going with that one, but if you mean to say that everyone would be better of and a lot more comfortable in your EMB-145 I'd have to disagree.

I was kidding about the Delta thing. I have a lot of respect for you guys. I hope you make it with all the Chapter 11 business. I would gladly form an alliance against NW though. 

I would have to agree, the ERJ is a bitch. I'm 6'3.. that plane is killing me, but I love flying it at the same time. Only 4 to 6 years till I can apply for CO.

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 43): BTW, send your resume to Delta Air Lines, Virginia Ave, Atlanta, GA.

haha, I appreciate the confidence in me. I've always wanted to work for Delta. It needs to be a really good offer though...is Mr. Grinstein reading this? hehe

Quoting COEXpilot (Reply 46): Only 4 to 6 years till I can apply for CO.

Well done! Congratulations. My instructor also works for COEX based out of EWR. He's a great guy and one of my best friends.

What's interesting is that it was under regulation that airlines had strong brand identities, because they used the BRAND to compete for pax because they couldn't compete on price.

Then, most airlines decided to be the price leader instead, and not worry about their deteriorating product.

WN never took that route. They decided we will have a consistent brand identity forever, and people will either like us or not. It's worked.

New entrants have tried to maintain brands. B6 is struggling now because they worked very hard to establish a BRAND in NYC, but didn't do the same in some of their other markets, so now when they expand to other markets, people only see them as a commodity, one that doesn't show up on travelocity or orbitz...

Frontier branded itself with it's animals, but is 'world famous in Denver' as they say, and now is forced to compete with WN, a well known brand throughout the USA.

DL tried to brand a slice of it's fleet, but it got muddy because you might be on Song for part, DL for another part

United p.s. is a decent brand but is so limited.

The problem is that for a legacy, you can't gradually introduce a brand. You have to rebrand all at once. But the cost to do that is prohibitive. You can't retrofit your whole fleet with PTVs and new seats in 2 months. It takes years, so the brand identity change will be so gradual, it won't work.

It seams that only upstarts can start a brand identity from scratch. Virgin America is going to try it. Eos and MaxJet are trying it.

And as most people learn, once you grow too big, your brand starts to slip without really tight controls. How many times have you heard "but they used to be so good..."

That's what makes an airline like SQ so extraordinary. A strong brand for so long, service that never slips even as the airline grows. EK is already starting to slip and things don't look like they will get better as they expand quickly.

Braniff, where are you!? That was an identifiable brand if there ever was one in the USA airline industry.

Quoting Foxecho (Reply 2): I have to admit because of the low airfares alot more people are flying who certainly deserve to be on the bus.

This is OH SO TRUE!!! lol